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roytheboy
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Come out, come out, wherever you are, it's Friday afternoon Tongue

Your starter for ten is: where is this sort of thing going to lead?...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4228910.stm

Any comments :?:

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Google hires Vint Cerf

It's going to lead to where Google are taking it. it's an old adage "information is power" and Google are going to dominate in that respect. they appear to attract, and probably very easily, all the brightest minds in the industry.

They still as far as I'm aware are largely uncontrolled in as far as the gathering and storage of information is concerned and that should be rather worrying. This ability to grow and expand the distributed network they have developed, to store and index every word on every page is fascinating and one can only wonder where they can take this, but many seem worried that eventually the internet as such will in reality just be one gigantic Google network/server.

Taking on someone like Vint Cerf suggests to me that they are filling in the philosophical side of their progress they have the network they have developed the technology needed they now just need to fully realise it's potential which is where people like Mr Cerf will come in. It must also do wonders for the share price to have someone like that on board. However I do think that retaining his position as chairman of ICANN as well as this new position with Google has the possibility for conflict of interests and am surprised it's allowed.

Should we be worried by Google does it have hidden agendas ?

Do we need companies that seem to be so focused on controlling certain aspects of the internet I can't see that this is in the best interests of the individual or the ethos that developed the internet but this is the way societys are going, tighter and tighter control over citizens; who will have access to goggles stored information, why do they need to employ people that have held top level U.S security clearance.

No one seems to read anymore this was the point that the great writers like George Orwell tried to enlighten people about, to highlite the possible directions society could take if not checked.
Paranoid ? no not really, just aware of the road were driving down.

Slightly off the point of the post ? in some ways yes , in some ways no.

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Google hires Vint Cerf

Hugo wrote:
...but many seem worried that eventually the internet as such will in reality just be one gigantic Google network/server...

This was in my mind when I made my post. The whole situation is both exciting and frightening. I'm not sure what to make of it all just yet, but when I think back to what I've seen happening with regards to the net and the web during the last decade, it seems like almost anything could happen from here on in.

I'm going to have to digest your thoughts and come up with some comments of my own - at the moment I need to take it all in. This single action of hiring such an important and influential man has really made me want to think carefully about where they are going from here. Hmmmmm :? :-k

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Google hires Vint Cerf

TBH, I don't care if Google are focussed on creating the best stuff and doing whatever it takes to get there. (I haven't read much of this topic, it's too much text Tongue) Look at Google search - brilliant. I use nothing else. Been using it for years, haven't touched anything else, ever.

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I truly believe that it is important to start regarding Google with some trepidation, and that it is not deranged paranoia to believe that ultimately google may take on a very sinister role, they may well also remain benign and ultruistic who knows. What I do know is that the world is moving in a certain direction and I'm not sure it's a direction I like and that I believe something like Google is positioning itself for a leading role in the way information is gathered and stored and used.

I do not for one minute think that what we see of Googles technologies is half what they might be developing or that they intend on just perfecting this search and retrieval engine. They will now be in deep contemplation of what just is possible real or imagined.

I think that this might well be the dawn of a very different age of mankind where we see the realization of the dream of ensuring that everything is tagged, databased, and sorted where personal freedom finally is an illusion and democracy finally exposed for what it really doesn't represent, that strange term 'Freedom'

My ultimate concern is that there appears to be no apparent checks and balances on Google which leads me to suspect that somewhere something is going on as I don't believe governments would be prepared to allow Google to grow unchecked or controlled in some fashion.

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Hmm you miss the point TPH, it's your generation that should be concerned. But I fear that your generation are just not sufficiently cognizant to understand what's happening around you and will happily just acquiesce to anything as long as you have your T.V or video games.

Harsh , yes, but I see examples of this attitude everyday.

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Google hires Vint Cerf

Quote:
"It's chief internet evangelist, which suggests I should go from three-piece suits to some sort of ecclesiastical robes," he said, before going on to describe his actual religion as "geek orthodox".

Such an intellectual. Brainy and full of Wit. Laughing out loud

I refuse to be like the faceless masses of sheep and have a signatu......awwwwwwwww CRAP!!

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Hugo the ever paranoid wrote:

No one seems to read anymore


I still read (and not just on this forum! real books Tongue)

tph I think you're being rather naive. looking at the tree (your current satisfaction with google search) and not at the forest (where google is going).

who knows how they are going to dictate how their searches work and the results they produce in the future? it's currently a guarded secret. what if they are the next microsoft? I think they really have the potential for that...especially lulling everyone into a false sense of security (google is not evil!) with their current policy.

but people want power and money and that almost always seems to win out and may drive google into places I hope it won't go.

although I find Hugo and Roy's 1984 sentiment far reaching, that may be because I don't want to believe it's true. what a scary thought.

but isn't that what you're saying the problem is Hugo? people aren't thinking anymore. we just toodle along as long as we have the things that make us happy.

hrm

larmyia

ps sorry roy if I've gone too far off the topic. your thoughts just made me think...what can I say??

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Google hires Vint Cerf

larmyia wrote:

tph I think you're being rather naive. looking at the tree (your current satisfaction with google search) and not at the forest (where google is going).

who knows how they are going to dictate how their searches work and the results they produce in the future? it's currently a guarded secret. what if they are the next microsoft?

As long as their stuff remains free, easy to use, and follows the standards Laughing out loud :D I'm more than happy. I'll let you older fellows worry about the sinister goings-on . . . Laughing out loud

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thepineapplehead wrote:

As long as their stuff remains free, easy to use, and follows the standards Laughing out loud :D I'm more than happy. I'll let you older fellows worry about the sinister goings-on . . . Laughing out loud


older fellows??? I'm not an OAP you know.

for someone of your intellect I think that is the daftest thing I've ever heard (read) you say. you need to take responsibility for the future. if everyone sat around and let other people get on with it where would we be?

in a darn site worse place than we are now.

I'm really surprised by your laizes fair attitude.

maybe Hugo's point was valid and I'm giving you too much credit. don't get me wrong...I'm not saying go and protest or whatever. what I'm saying is at least think about it and have an opinion. you can't just brush things off and not bother...

or I spose you can.

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Quote:
"All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing"
-Edmund Burke


Or in other words stand by and do nothing at ones peril but having stood by and allowed it to happen don't for gods sake start bleating about it when it comes to pass.

The most dangerous of situations exists today and that is a lack of understanding of responsibility . Responsibility is something we are all born to and carry with us to the grave; it cannot be obviated.

The current machinations rely utterly on people not being cognizant - actually this has always been the case - they are not necessarily sinister but while we are not able to clearly see the intent we must regard the moves as insidious.

We have a responsibility to future generations and past generations that evil does not flourish and in case you wonder there is such a thing as good and evil as real and tangible as you can imagine and the battle ground is the human psyche.

I mentioned reading as there has been a great legacy left us in the form of the thoughts of people who asked questions and attempted to show us the possible outcomes if we followed certain paths, often these writings were born out of personal experiences in an age of massive unreason and of an innate understanding of the importance of understanding history and the inevitable folly of humans to repeat mistakes.

I notice amongst a lot of people under the age(generalization) of 25 an attitude of not really caring what happens around them we are becoming a race of self absorb beings unable to care for one another

Reading is now not considered that important and by reading I do not mean Tom Clancy by the age of 16 I had read nearly every important twentieth century author from kafka to Herman Hesse to Graham Greene to Ernest Hemingway to Josepth Conrad

For in these authors resides a clue to the nature of man and a warning for us all to observe and think on.

It is why I have an inkling of where things may be heading as it is all about our nature.

Sorry this has now veered off from "Google, the great conspiracy or benign benevolent creation."

Hugo.

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thepineapplehead wrote:
As long as their stuff remains free, easy to use, and follows the standards Laughing out loud :D I'm more than happy. I'll let you older fellows worry about the sinister goings-on . . . Laughing out loud

Back in the dim dark distant past. A nice kindly (not so) old gentleman released a free, easier to use and more standards compliant web browser than anyone else. And whats more, he made damm sure it came already installed on your computer when you first turned it on.

Of cource you will all recognise the kindly man as Bill and the browser as IE5. Wink

Personally, I worry more about some of the privacy implications of recent statements by my government concerning email recording and storage. We can choose not to use Google.

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larmyia wrote:
ps sorry roy if I've gone too far off the topic. your thoughts just made me think...what can I say??

AFAIC this thread is smack on topic. I'm not saying Google are good or bad, or that they are another Micro$ft out to own the world - I'm just trying to get a hook on where they're going because you can bet your bottom dollar that whatever they do, it will have a profound impact on our futures as long as we are part of the 'net' industry.

I didn't get to my 19th successful year running the same business by sitting back and waiting for things to happen - as you might have noticed by now, I do my best to spot and predict trends so that I can be best-placed to continue earning a living in the years to come. I started this topic because I recognised a major event (to my mind) that is an indicator of future pathways yet to be trodden. I want to analyse what is going on here and am therefore very interested in the opinions of my peers here on this forum.

As for TPH's comments: I thought Hugo was being a bit harsh, but he was in fact 'on the nail'. That's not to criticise you TPH, as I am interested in all opinions and as shocking as yours is to me, it probably is quite typical of today's younger generation! Thanks for sharing your thoughts anyway Smile

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Yes my comments were harsh, but intended that way to underline a point, and TPH, were not really directed at you yourself but to you as representative of a generation.

Chris I think that Google has possibly gone beyond the point where our choices make a difference I think it has established a firm and undeniable toe hold in the industry and are all pervasive and yet I'm sure hasn't even begun to put it's extended plans in place, but it's the continual snippets of information we hear about that suggest that they are actively seeking new avenues to exploit their technology with, As Roy says, I do not necessarily see them as evil but see them as slowly positioning themselves for what we do not yet know and that should always raise questions.

On a lighter note I think they will become one of the great innovators of the net and of distributed applications and of things yet undreamed of, lets just pray that they keep it real and aren't seduced by the dark side.

Lets remember "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely"

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I'm afraid that I agree that it's only wise to be cautious about a single company holding so much sway over the internet. However wonderful their intentions are currently, you can't predict that they will remain so in the future.

Plus, it seems to me that us lot spend an awful lot of time (on this forum and on others) discussing issues that boil down to two things:

1. How to deal with IE and still have "good" websites
2. How to get decent ranking for our client's and our own sites

So we already spend inordinate amounts of time doing battle with MS and Google. (Everyone else seems to talk mostly about Ebay)

The unholy trinity of the internet's future: MS, Google and Ebay.

BTW - I still read too! Albeit mostly SF - does that count?

My strategy is so simple an idiot could have devised it!

"Also, your CSS (no offence) makes me want to gouge my eyes out with a rusty spoon" - TPH

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Oh christ don't get me started on Ebay, is this really the future of the internet, is this all it boils down to a cheap market place, a glorified fleamarket, pandering to everyones desire to try and turn a fast buck selling tat. I rue the day the internet turned into a shop, bah humbug, all of it's noble aspirations cheapened by commerce.

Yeah I think that sci- fi has it's share of serious writers, but sadly they struggle to be heard over the disdain for the genre at the end of the day reading is just one of those absolute essential duties and as a good example of why and the fear produced in it's liberation of the masses from the shackles of oppression I cite a title in the sci-fi genre: 'Fahrenheit 451' for years a mandatory book in sociology classes.

Smile :? time for me to shut up with the cheap moral philosophy

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HellsBells wrote:
BTW - I still read too! Albeit mostly SF - does that count?

only if they are the classics Tongue

they are the great predictors of our time. don't you know we're all going to end up floating through space on the back of a turtle?

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Better late than never, I've considered the issue of Google's rapid growth and hiring of the world's great minds, and I reckon that it's okay. The internet was always destined for commercial exploitation if it was going to grow, and the same can be said for the web. It is the nature of mankind to want to gain on a personal level whilst serving others, so commercialisation was an inevitability.

Microsoft tried and are still trying to 'own' the web and the net, and in the minds of many they do! ("The web; that's that Windows thing with the spinning blue 'e', isn't it!") Left unchecked, Microsoft will drag us ever further backwards and downwards into the poisoned waters of its idea of world domination at all costs and bu99er innovation and bu99er anyone else that has or had good ideas or companies and bu99er anyone and everyone that tries to set standards for the good of people other than Microsoft.

How many organisations can take on Microsoft to stop the throttling of innovation and standardisation of that excuse of an OS called Windows and that excuse of a browser called Internet Explorer? Governments? ...don't make me laugh and don't get me started! Apple? ...who knows for the future but not yet, that's for sure. AOL? ...the dumb blonds of the industry: all smiles and flashy ads but nothing of substance behind the ads ...another firm that puts their bottom line well and truly ahead of their customers' best interests. Anyone else? ...well yes, as it happens: Google. Google could continue their domination of the web and could give Microsoft a run for their money in quite a few very important areas.

Google are experimenting with and pushing web application technology forwards, even if it is just the clever deployment of old ideas at the moment. They are leading the way with search technology. They are poaching the best staff from Microsoft and they are obviously planning great things for the future. The hiring of Vint Cerf is a hugely significant event because they are either trying to 'buy' credibility and influence, or they are trying to 'buy' inspirational leadership and ethical core values. Either way they can be no worse than Microsoft so the world has nothing to lose AFAIC. Personally, I'm prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt and the chance to prove that their hearts are in the right place.

Microsoft have proved themselves to be complete bas*ards time and time again, whereas Google's wanderings to the dark side have been short-lived and rare by comparison. It is the nature of the commercial beast that it will act in its own interests, but I reckon that we'll all be far better off with Google than we will with Microsoft, so I for one am prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt for the time being.

Keep up the good work, Google Smile Now all I've got to do is try and foresee where you're going to take us all in the future.

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roytheboy wrote:
but I reckon that we'll all be far better off with Google than we will with Microsoft

Unless Google are just being far more clever than Microsoft at hiding their true motives (assuming they're not altogether altruistic).

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roytheboy wrote:
...so I for one am prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt for the time being.

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As always, the BBC have summed up the current 'Google' situation in a very easy to digest article > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4362974.stm

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Yes but a bit light weight and still does not offer a glimpse into the underlying development of these tools and of the network they are creating, that's what offers Google endless possibilities for changing the nature of the way the net works for us and I'm sure they are not about to publicly discuss what they privately envisage and are aiming towards.

The quote "it will take about 300 years to get things sorted" was a little depressing as I really don't think I can hang on for that long, I get bored easily waiting around.

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The future of internet technology

I have to agree some with Hugo etc on ebay. I live near Paypal actually and find that now they are promoting meaning ebay commercials etc. Sales must be down, dont think so. I would hate to see the internet based on Google stuff and ebay. The main purpose is learning and sharing across the globe, but has reached more by opening up appilcations that are webbased.

If we could only see 50 years down the road....what would the internet be and how would we make it to benefit ourselves intelectually. Just some ramblings I guess.....

I have to wonder what google is up to. Once just a powerful search engine, now looking to take a big bite out of MS etc, google is fast becoming more. And what is up with the NASA partnership recently...whats to gain there for google?

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Hugo wrote:

I notice amongst a lot of people under the age(generalization) of 25 an attitude of not really caring what happens around them we are becoming a race of self absorb beings unable to care for one another

I have been following this discussion. Intriguing. Scary. Reality. I can tell you from watching those around me...those who are "self absorbed" not caring about the world around are the ones who cause the most damage...because the ones who do make a difference (whether good or bad) do not sit around and do nothing. Vint Cerf probably has earned the positions he has acquired, not by sitting around. Whatever his motivation is...it has gotten him to ICANN and Google.

I look at Google like I do Bilbo Baggins. His intentions at first were good, but the power became so great that he didn't even know that it controlled him...even to the end after Frodo destroyed it...he wanted to see it. Google has the potential of serving this world in a wonderful way, but I see warnings that could affect us.

I am not that old, but old enough to know that it is unwise to knowingly remain naive with the world around me. Some say that Hugo and Roy are taking George Orwell (Animal Farm is more real than we think) to the extreme, but I don't think so. My generation needs to realize that Freedom is not something to take for granted...especially in the area of technology, internet and so forth. If we do not be careful, educate ourselves and be concerned, before we know it...companies like Google have the potential of controlling us.

I am rambling now, but this is a sore spot for me...to see what is going on around me, but most of my peers having the attitude of 'who cares, it doesn't affect me'...but it does.

- r

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Exactly ragamuffin we live in a world where control has always been sought it's human nature to establish order and control, the problem with that ingrained desire is that unchecked it can lead us into nightmare scenarios and history demonstrates this to us, but we - as a collective body - tend to ignore the lessons of history.

Freedom is a illusory term, an empty word. We judge our level of freedom against those that we envisage as having a far more restricted level of comparable freedoms, yet we all live within proscribed boundaries of choice. It is perhaps more pertinent to list the things we are not free to do than those that we are. We are all bound to a set of mores of the societies that we live in, these place large sets of conditions on us that we are obliged to follow in order for that society to retain a level of order and control, admittedly many conditions that we would all agree with, I do not consider the freedom to cause harm to others as something desirable.

Yet in imposing these controls comes the danger that it requires that individuals make decisions for the rest of us and it is this power that corrupts, or at least has the potential to corrupt.

The one thing that is clear from history is that to control you must subjugate your masses, however subtly. This is where control of information plays a part, where media springs into play to promote a lifestyle that we should all follow or aspire to. The great social invention of the twentieth century was the realization of marketing /advertising as a means of diverting attention away from real issues and to more ego-centric desires (Keeping up with the joneses)

So in this way freedom is taken for granted, or more accurately what freedom represents is not really understood, we accept a version of freedom, and maybe this is for the best for it is true to say that the individual is capable of a frightening degree of instability without those controls in place.

What though is important is awareness of the conditions around us and it is this very thing that we tend to pay lip service to. Amongst my generation there is an alarming tendency to not care as long as our own little world is okay and that attitude filters down through the younger generations . It is this attitude that allows those that must implement control to see the opportunity for even more alarming degrees of control while promising us that it's to protect our liberty that these actions must be taken.

What will our freedoms amount to in fifty years time ?

Writers of the the early twentieth century; thinkers such as George Orwell amongst others endeavored to bring to our attention the possibilities that lay ahead for society, they did this as the one true protection of liberty is a Humanity that is aware and that thinks for itself and that cares for others, they did not write these classics as a nice story, they were intended to convey a message, a warning of what was possible, but not inevitable.

Sadly we are actually moving towards a society much as described by these writers, so were their efforts in vein? seems that way as few tend to see reading as anything important, and bury there heads in the sand rather than acknowledge that there may just be a problem.

Which brings me back full circle to Google and frankly any organization that grows globally unchecked. I do not offer any judgement on Google either way, but I do see the warning signs when any organization starts to dominate in a field, especially one to do with information.

Who truly knows what Googles plans are, what their aiming towards, it may be that they prove to be the most altruistic organization on the planet, they certainly started out with the noblest of ethics in mind and I hope that they can find a way to stay on this path, but the more they grow the more worried other people and groups that have historically sought to sit at the top of the tree will become and Google may well find itself a victim of it's own success, a success and power base that others will not tolerate them having.

Hugo.

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roytheboy
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Google hires Vint Cerf

If you've got half-an-hour to spare and did not see the BBC Money Programme called 'The World according to Google', you can catch it here > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4598090.stm It's a good balanced summary of the company and how it's come to be where it is now. It is not exactly controversial, but still worth watching.

Life's a b*tch and then you die!