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Lorraine
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Lorraine,

You obviously need more days off, as just a single one has seemingly revitalized you.

- Antibland

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Hello lovely boy Cool - how's the girlfriend hunt going :?:

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Re: Microsoft reveal alliance with WaSP - no joke this time

Lorraine wrote:
http://webstandards.org/press/releases/archive/2005/07/05/
Shock Do my eyes deceive me? Shock
Mebbe. I'm not going to hold my breath though.

DeprecatedDiva

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Lorraine wrote:
Hello lovely boy Cool - how's the girlfriend hunt going :?:

I posted a ridiculous ad on Craigslist and am currently juggling 3 or 4 women that I don't desire: a hippie, a wimp, a neurotic, and a grandmother. After a 6+ year relationship, it's rather difficult merging back into the dating scene, especially considering that I was never really in it to begin with. Other than that, it's going great!! :?

- Antibland

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Re: Microsoft reveal alliance with WaSP - no joke this time

Lorraine wrote:
http://webstandards.org/press/releases/archive/2005/07/05/
Shock Do my eyes deceive me? Shock

Don't get too excited - it's just part of their standard strategy of Embrace, Extend and Extinguish

Life's a b*tch and then you die!

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roytheboy wrote:
Don't get too excited - it's just part of their standard strategy of Embrace, Extend and Extinguish

I don't know...you could be right Roy, but I prefer to hope for the best. actually Molly Holzschlag spoke about this at the @media2005 conference (but she asked us to say nothing for the time being!). she seemed really positive about it.

like I say, I hope for the best, but time will no doubt tell.....

larmyia

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O ye of little faith - the EEE strategy could be over. MS could now be in the business of "dumbing down" the standards to meet what IE is capable of doing.

Alternatively, I came across this comment from an accessibility insider:

Quote:
Now that the gags are off.... The developers within Microsoft are strongly in favour of being standards compliant. The issues seem to be on the manager level. This particular announcement is a good sign that the developers and bloggers inside Microsoft have won a major victory over their marketing department.

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Embrace: Finally use the standards
Extend: Make more of their own standards
Extinguish: Get rid of the competition

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Lorraine wrote:
O ye of little faith

O me of no faith. I've watched M$ grow since the eighties. Too many innovators and great ideas have fallen victim to this company that will sink to any depths to control and dominate. I'm not just knocking them because it's fashionable to do so - I genuinely have no faith in them whatsoever.

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Ah but - I'm wearing my new rose-tinted spectacles today. Cool

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Lorraine wrote:
Ah but - I'm wearing my new rose-tinted spectacles today. Cool

makes everything look oh so much better doesn't it? Smile

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bemoaning his lack of prowess with the ladies, Antibland wrote:
currently juggling 3 or 4 women that I don't desire: a hippie, a wimp, a neurotic, and a grandmother.

You have been spoilt by that avatar - as you have been off the scene for a while, I must ask you to believe me when I say, "not all young ladies are made that way." Crying

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We won't get fooled again. Maybe I will delete WASP from my bookmarks.

Quote:
We are impressed with the advancement in standards conformance in Visual Studio 2005 and ASP.NET 2.0

How easily impressed are they? One of the big bugaboos about ASP.NET is its difficulty with standards compliance. And what about IE?
Quote:
Web developers worldwide will benefit from the relationship as Microsoft will continue to deliver tools that make it easier for Web developers to build standards conformant Web applications using technologies and products such as ASP.NET and Visual Studio.

In other words, "We got owned!". Molly should have just said MS bought us. They are pushing MS products but what about the competition? Is the WASP gang going to help them, too? Is impartiality out the window?

I'm very suspicious of this. It sounds like a sad day for web standards.

IE7 is 10 years behind the standards or wrong.
But it works in IE!
IE is a cancer on the web -- Paul Thurott

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Lorraine wrote:
bemoaning his lack of prowess with the ladies, Antibland wrote:
currently juggling 3 or 4 women that I don't desire: a hippie, a wimp, a neurotic, and a grandmother.

You have been spoilt by that avatar - as you have been off the scene for a while, I must ask you to believe me when I say, "not all young ladies are made that way." Crying

Yeah, I was a bit harsh. The grandmother was really fun and knowledgable about programming, movies, and literature. I've been way too judgemental lately and not nearly reactive enough. I forgot that people can be fun for who they are and not who I wish them to be. And yes, Lorraine, I'd love to take you out for an evening. Smile

- Antibland

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Lorraine wrote:
Ah but - I'm wearing my new rose-tinted spectacles today. Cool

Why do you think you are reading about this alliance between M$ and WASP? Do M$ need WASP to design a browser or scripting language that meets the w3c standards? Can they not read the standards for themselves just as you and I can? Do you honestly think that with all their money and global resources that they couldn't build a 100% compliant browser in a week? This initiative is all about publicly getting WASP on their side. Who at WASP is now going to criticise M$ when M$ are giving them kudos and credibility by publicly forming a 'task force' with them (what a name - I ask you)! You don't have to look very deep to see what's going on - it's all so shallow.

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drhowarddrfine wrote:

In other words, "We got owned!". Molly should have just said MS bought us. They are pushing MS products but what about the competition? Is the WASP gang going to help them, too? Is impartiality out the window?

I'm very suspicious of this. It sounds like a sad day for web standards.

I hear what you're saying, but how far did they get by slagging off MS? I think they are trying a different approach. will it work? time will tell. Maybe Roy is right and there isn't a seed of good in the whole company and all this standards talk to just to put us off the scent.

or maybe the softly softly approach will make some headway...

we'll see and discuss no doubt

larmyia

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larmyia wrote:
but how far did they get by slagging off MS?

Well they obviously made an impact otherwise M$ would not be so keen to be seen to be working with them.

It's very clever in its simplicity. One minute M$ are getting slatted, the next they are seen as part of the drive towards standards compliance. And will they do anything other than paying lip service to the ideals? ...they'll probably make a few minor concessions to give WASP something to boast about, but to all intents and purposes I'd say WASP has just sold out. It's business as usual for M$ then!

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I have to agree with Roy completely on this, it is just a very simple bit of deception on the part of MS, divide and conquer, as stated it's so simple now that MS have got the WASP working for them they can manipulate the standards to their own ends, you'll see in a few years or less MS proclaiming how they have developed and set the standards, If WASP think they are playing a clever game they have miscalculated very very badly and will loose just about any credibility that they may have once had, although that was never that great since Zeldman parted company from them over the premature ending of the browser initiative.

WASP have lost the ability to remain fully independent and will not be able to criticize MS this is not good , the standards movement must remain independent if they are to succeed, MS must be forced to come to them if it wants to play.

MS are quite capable of developing their applications to meet the standards, this action is divisive, the standards movement should continue to develope these standards independently along with whomever wishes to work with them on the working groups and that includes MS if they don't wish to be left behind but at the end of day MS have never wanted to work this way and can't seemingly abide not being at the head of these developments.

MS are moving to the end game and are playing it well .

Hugo.

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*sigh* :roll:

mebby you guys are right. I am just begining to understand the full complexity of how MS's ways wreak havoc in my life (ie the problems I have with my pc and their os). I guess I do have trouble understanding where they come from because I just don't think like that (money, power, domination) and therefore find it hard to understand why they won't come to the standards party we're all holding.

but, the more I read about them, the more I understand and the more it scares me.

hmmm.....a lot to think about.

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Hugo wrote:
If WASP think they are playing a clever game they have miscalculated very very badly and will loose just about any credibility that they may have once had

They've just lost it!

larmyia wrote:
I am just begining to understand the full complexity of how MS's ways wreak havoc in my life

But it's not complex - that's my point. It's oh so simple, just don't credit them with any honour or decency, and then look at everything they do on a very simple level and their tactics are plain to see. For example: why form a 'task force' with WASP? ...they don't need them to work to standards ...they need WASP to be quiet ...they need WASP to sing their praises. It's so simple it makes my blood boil that WASP have fallen for it.

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roytheboy wrote:

larmyia wrote:
I am just begining to understand the full complexity of how MS's ways wreak havoc in my life

But it's not complex - that's my point. It's oh so simple, just don't credit them with any honour or decency


Big picture it is simple, but not so straightforward with things like the problems with my computer for example. I've only recently cottoned on to why I've had so many probs. it's 1 1/2 yrs old and my fiance (the tech half of the relationship!) has had to reinstall everything about 5 times!. up till now I thought these kind of problems stemmed from my computer, but from talking* to James (fiance) I now understand how they are due to my os and its flaws.

now, I'm not tech savvy, but I do know a thing or two about computers, and I didn't get the whole MS thing in relation to my problems. if they had me fooled, what chance is there for most of the other people out there.

and if what you're saying is true, and they are just using WASP to quash standards all together, I fear there is no hope. what is the future Roy? where is all this going? what do you think can make a change if WASP's approach isn't the answer?

answers on a postcard.

was having a good day, but this is all making me feel rather depressed again. I think Lorraine should have no more days off work!!! Wink

back to my stylesheet switcher woes.

larmyia

*ie: coming to bed at 4am fuming and informing me we're never buying another pc!

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larmyia wrote:
what is the future Roy? where is all this going? what do you think can make a change if WASP's approach isn't the answer?

I'm not psychic but I'll tell you what I'm thinking...

There are various good bits of news that on their own will not effect the situation at all, but that when put together could start to change things. As I have mentioned before on this forum, life is cyclic, empires rise and fall, species survive and die out, business trends come and go, companies prosper and fail, so this alone tells me that M$'s domination will not last forever. As I see it, the only way to break their stronghold on the computer scene is to come up with excellent applications that can run on any platform (i.e. web applications), and/or for another (far better) OS (and hence browser) to become a serious contender for the corporate buyers.

Unfortunately, Linux is still too complicated for most IT department staff, many of whom seem to be in trouble with anything more than button-clicking that they learnt on a three-day course. Mac OSX, on the other hand, is now a very mature, stable and much-loved OS that although far from perfect, is still in a completely different league to Windows in so many important respects, and can be managed by the button-clickers. Apple have always insisted on their OS running only on their hardware, for some very good reasons I might add, but to the detriment of global adoption of the OS, so are they so smart after all? But that may be about to change.

Much to my amazement, Apple are switching to Intel processors next year, and following the ipod halo effect, other PC manufacturers are now actively seeking to sell OSX on their machines. Michael Dell started the ball rolling by publicly declaring that he wants to licence OSX for his machines. Steve Jobs has previously said "no way" to such ideas, but things are different now. The market has changed and Jobs may have softened in his senior years. Widespread adoption of Mac OSX is now more than ever before a distinct possibility, and if such an initiative is allowed to gain momentum then Windows will be out on its ear, or at least it will start to lose it's monopoly position.

So; by combining all the little signs such as the growing popularity of Firefox; the increasing adoption of web application technology; the possible (I stress 'possible') wider adoption of OSX; and the general dissatisfaction amongst Windows users, you end up with a shifting tide. All you need now is for the emergence of some as-yet unforeseen event or technology to shake the market up (e.g. think back to the first introduction of the fax machine, the mobile phone, email etc.) and things could definitely change for the better. Personally I'm looking to Apple to lead the way, but it could be from a different quarter.

All we then have to do is to stop any one company (and that includes Apple and Google) getting into a monopoly situation from where they do not act responsibly towards the rest of the planet.

...well you did ask!

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You can't teach an old dog new tricks.

I'm not too worried about MS's monopoly on the industry. I find that the younger generation are switching to non-windows OS and browsers more often. It's old fashioned people, like my father (who refuses to use FF), that keep things from moving forward.

Most of the people I meet use FF now, and if they don't I quickly convert them once they see its awesomeness..

In time.

Seb

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As much as I am enjoying (not) watching a chap heading for apoplexy, whilst trying to save the planet from his own personal nemesis, I do have an important invitation to accept.

the wonderful Antibland wrote:
And yes, Lorraine, I'd love to take you out for an evening.

:oops: Arriving at RumShakers on East Carson at 8pm your time. I'll be on Virgin(yeah right) Airlines Flight 1921 - keep an eye out or up :roll:

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roytheboy wrote:
<snip snip>
...well you did ask!

no. thank you. food for thought.

larmyia

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sanch3x wrote:
You can't teach an old dog new tricks.

Not so in my experience. Openness to change seems to be a quality that effects no particular age spectrum. I know plenty of youngsters that refuse to show any interest in anything that isn't part of Windows, and I also know plenty of 'older' people who are totaly clued-up with the web. Don't forget that many of the regulars on this very forum are in their forties or fifties! Maybe you don't mix with enough 'older' people apart from your parents.

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larmyia wrote:
roytheboy wrote:
<snip snip>
...well you did ask!
no.

Oh yes you did!

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roytheboy wrote:
larmyia wrote:
roytheboy wrote:
<snip snip>
...well you did ask!
no.

Oh yes you did!

I meant, don't be sorry for the reply! I did ask and enjoyed your response! :roll: I was typing my thoughts...too literal I guess. my fault. re-reading I can see how it sounded.

the "no" in this intance was more of a "hrm, that's an interesting pov putting some things in a way I hadn't thought of before"

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I didn't really mean older people, I meant old fashioned.

I would never stick an image on someone don't worry about it Wink and I'm aware of the age group on these forums because I was almost strangled by Hugo in his birthday thread.

The only problem is with people who refuse to be taught differently. Most people who don't know the difference between windows and linux are those who usually use their computers for using word perfect and checking their email... why should they change when windows makes it so simple.

However, everyone I know in my classes are very open and will listen to any criticism on their choises of OS/browser.

I'm sorry if I offended with the previous post. I re-read it and saw that I used 'younger-generation' when I really meant the information-hippies Tongue but in my defense I did say old-fashioned-people later so I guess that makes me kit.

But I still stick to my opinion... things will change soon enough.

Seb

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sanch3x wrote:
The only problem is with people who refuse to be taught differently. Most people who don't know the difference between windows and linux are those who usually use their computers for using word perfect and checking their email


as you say sanch3x, if it's so easy for people why would they want to change? as a general rule people hate change and only do so when they are forced.

and as I mentioned earlier, I didn't realise the effect MS products was having on me, and I doubt most people using MS Word and Outlook will either.

as you are doing, the one tangable thing we can do is to educate those around us. educate educate educate.

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sanch3x wrote:
I'm sorry if I offended with the previous post.

You didn't, but thanks for the apology anyway Smile

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Well, I started - so I'll try to finish.

Anyone interested in a wider spectrum of views (both for and against Microsoft) might like to visit:
http://www.molly.com/2005/07/05/wasp-to-collaborate-with-microsoft-to-promote-web-standards/

Perhaps we should take this debate to another site's bandwidth - where, at least, it is a mainstream subject.

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Lorraine wrote:
As much as I am enjoying (not) watching a chap heading for apoplexy, whilst trying to save the planet from his own personal nemesis, I do have an important invitation to accept.

the wonderful Antibland wrote:
And yes, Lorraine, I'd love to take you out for an evening.

:oops: Arriving at RumShakers on East Carson at 8pm your time. I'll be on Virgin(yeah right) Airlines Flight 1921 - keep an eye out or up :roll:
Yeah, surely you'll be on time. :^o About that apoplexy, it's such a neat condition and word, isn't it? I wonder if that's how Coldplay came up with their previous album title?

- Antibland

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Lorraine wrote:
Well, I started - so I'll try to finish.

Anyone interested in a wider spectrum of views (both for and against Microsoft) might like to visit:
http://www.molly.com/2005/07/05/wasp-to-collaborate-with-microsoft-to-promote-web-standards/

Perhaps we should take this debate to another site's bandwidth - where, at least, it is a mainstream subject.

It's blocked from work =(

Seb

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Quote:
Yeah, surely you'll be on time. :^o

Of course - and to prove it I attached an inflight picture to the post.
Quote:
About that apoplexy, it's such a neat condition and word

Not sure about the condition being neat, but the word is one of those beauts you can roll around your tongue for ages and asperate all you want over the "p"s.

PS Doh! Coldplay - is that the software with the .cfm extension - as in Chris (f) Martin Wink

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Keeping two seperate threads going within the same topic, Lorraine wrote:
Anyone interested in a wider spectrum of views (both for and against Microsoft) might like to visit:
http://www.molly.com/2005/07/05/wasp-to-collaborate-with-microsoft-to-promote-web-standards/

Perhaps we should take this debate to another site's bandwidth - where, at least, it is a mainstream subject.

Personally I'm not interested in continuing this subject elsewhere, although I will happily discuss it with members of this forum if asked. M$ will never change - their tactics are too well engrained in the higher levels of their culture. I read the responses on the link you gave and can see that there is no need for me to add anything, thanks to the very last post on the page:

On July 11th Rob Belics wrote:
You got owned! Why don’t we say MS just bought WASP? Wasp is now going to start pushing MS products? Where will impartiality and objectivity go? Can’t MS figure out the standards on their own? Aren’t they a member of W3C? Is Wasp just an MS front now? I am very suspicious of all this.

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Spookeeee!

on Sunday 10 July 11:20pm, drhowarddrfine wrote:
In other words, "We got owned!". Molly should have just said MS bought us. They are pushing MS products but what about the competition? Is the WASP gang going to help them, too? Is impartiality out the window?

I'm very suspicious of this. It sounds like a sad day for web standards.

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Sanch3x with amazement wrote:
I was almost strangled by Hugo in his birthday thread

Whatever gave you that idea ?

Sanch3x I must admonish you over your remark that your not too concerned over MS domination, you really ought to be as it is quite simply the most destructive thing that happened to the computing world and is responsible for so many problems and the general stunting of growth and development within the computer industry.

That domination is still very evident as schools, universitys , IT training companys, for they still are completely focused on MS products; the youngsters learning to use computers are still learning the MS way and very few of them will ever make the break for Linux/Open Source the majority will continue to feed that part of the MS equation of people unable to function unless it's with a MS product.

Linux have still failed to come up with the desktop that will finally establish it as a rival to Windows and still remains the province of the geek/enthusiast and this is one of the drawbacks to OS development it doesn't really understand what people want and what they want is the ease of use of a windows platform, not having to mount every device; having said that I believe a major company donated a large sum of money to the linux dev team I suppose in an attempt to give them a kick up the backside and the wherewithal to get that desktop sorted,we live in hope.

Roy's mention of the OSX being ported to the Intel platform would be a wonderful thing but I still have an intense frustration with Apple for the way they have handled themselves over the years, if only they had tried to focus on the software side and challenged MS domination things may have been different instead of keeping their software tied to their hardware.

Hugo.

Laughing out loud I see some paraphrasing going on then :roll: must toddle off and read that link.

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I guess I don't have broad enough of a perspective to really give a valid opinion. I am a software engineering student and I suppose socially speaking, that makes me a geek *pushes his glasses back up*. But from what I see with the students attending this program more and more prefer Linux because they realize it is better (but they still use windows for other reasons). I myself still use windows but I know that as soon as something better and just as easy comes out.. I will convert.

For example: I installed Linux (red hat enterprises) today because I'm trying to setup an LDAP server. Every-single program I looked to install was impossible to find in a package. Why can't I just download an executable to install it on the linux machine... it's so much simpler that way. I'm sure there are a lot out there but boy... do you have to dig.

Lindows (I think it's call Linspire or something of the sort now) is going in the right direction but until something comes out that is as user friendly and doesn't require some sort of knowledge on how OS's work under the skin... why go through the trouble?

Uuugh I'm drifting from the point. What I'm trying to say is: People don't all know how to code and not everyone wants to learn. As long as MS is easier to use people don't care about the alternatives they just want to check their email and how Aunt Maria is doing.

Seb

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sanch3x wrote:
I myself still use windows but I know that as soon as something better and just as easy comes out.. I will convert.

Windows was and always will be a second-rate ripoff of the Mac OS - surely you know this! The whole concept of Windows, Icons, Menus and Pointing devices was first launched on the Apple Macintosh in 1984. Ask anyone who has to use both OSX and Windows (as do I) which is the better system and most will tell you that OSX wins by a country mile.

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Yeah, I want to get myself a mac.. but back in the day not all games I played were playable on the mac OS. It was the whole compability issue (which is no problem anymore but it was then).

I'm considering the purchase of a mac for my next laptop.

Seb

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sanch3x wrote:
I'm considering the purchase of a mac for my next laptop.

The Mac OS is not perfect by any means; but it's a hundred times better than Windows, and as it has a unix heart (with a few minor irregularities that only sysadmins would notice), it is far more flexible and secure to boot.

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And not to forget, 98% of viruses only affect PC Tongue

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sanch3x wrote:
And not to forget, 98% of viruses only affect PC Tongue

ah, but is that because most people use a pc? if everyone switched to macs would the situation change? would hackers (or crackers if you like) develop viruses for macs?

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Just as some/most people have had bad experiences of Windows, my first foray into computing was the Apple 2E in the mid-seventies, I think (I am sure Roy will correct me, if my long-term memory fails me). I still have nightmares from my struggles to learn *programming* (I use the term loosely) in Apple Basic but life is too short :!:

Once I found the IBM PC and later Windows, I thought all my prayers had been answered. OK there was a great deal of disillusionment with Windows later, but at least I could get the computer to do more or less what I wanted. By then, Apple seemed to have "thrown in the towel" so I stuck with PCs and Windows until very recently.

I now have a Powerbook, but only because of VoiceOver http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/voiceover/ and because I have agreed to help an assistive software developer test a free text-browser he is producing for Safari.

Guess what - the nightmares are back... twofold. I will persevere and, hopefully, become as familiar with this monster as I am with "that other monster". I would like to be able to advocate Mac technology as an *alternative* for my clients and all blind and partially-sighted people (a niche but significant market) if only the ongoing cost of ownership of a Mac (nevermind a Powerbook, which my own credit card paid for) were not so high. Even the MacMini, which is relatively modestly priced, still demands an ongoing upgrade budget and most visually-impaired people, are on modest earned incomes or even more modest state incomes.

So... rather than being concerned about the wizbang technology and who came up with what *feature* first, I just want an easy to use, affordable computer, howsoever it may be "badged". Wink

<dismantle>soap-box</dismantle>

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larmyia wrote:
ah, but is that because most people use a pc? if everyone switched to macs would the situation change? would hackers (or crackers if you like) develop viruses for macs?

Another common misconception. Virus writers do what they do for kudos among their peers. So far, nobody has managed to write a virus or worm that attacks OSX. Can you imagine the boasting-points and street-cred that the first person to achieve this goal would get? I'll wager that the serious virus writers out there are doing their very best to be known as the first person to crack OSX.

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Wandering even farther off course

larmyia wrote:
sanch3x wrote:
And not to forget, 98% of viruses only affect PC Tongue


ah, but is that because most people use a pc? if everyone switched to macs would the situation change? would hackers (or crackers if you like) develop viruses for macs?
That is a common misconception. The number and severity of virus, Trojans, and worms is proportional to the number and severity of the vulnerabilities—not the ubiquity of the platform or application, though that is a factor. That from an FBI/CERT report of a while back, and I have not a clue to the citation.

A good example of that is the webserver malware. Apache serves up 67%+ of all web sites, IIS, ≈25%. Yet where are the attacks on Apache servers.

Were Linux or OSX to have a larger presence, attempted attacks would surely increase, but damage is inherently limited by the *nix precepts of ownership and least privilege. Even if, say, the Thunderbird MUA were to have a critical security hole, its effect would be limited to the user's own restricted space and not other users (except where they are members of the user's groups) on the system, nor the kernel and its system binaries.

When you can set off M-80s in a Windows system, where's the joy of ladyfingers in a *nix box?

cheers,

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in response to what larmyia wrote:
ah, but is that because most people use a pc? if everyone switched to macs would the situation change? would hackers (or crackers if you like) develop viruses for macs?

roytheboy wrote:

Another common misconception.

and kk5st wrote:
That is a common misconception.

Great minds think alike.Smile

A good point on cracking OSX, same for Linux. The cracker who manages either will definitely be the kingfish.

cheers,

gary

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Lorraine - I really don't want to get into a Mac-v-Windows flame war, especially if it is going to be based on Apple Basic (I was learning programming on military set-ups at the time so I don't have a clue about MS or Apple Basic), specific niche requirements and cost-of-ownership arguments that simply don't stand up in corporate scenarios. I was trying to make the point to sanch3x that there already is a viable (and better in my opinion) alternative to Windows. Even if you have issues with OSX, you surely can't deny that it is far better overall than Windows - can you :?

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I really do not have enough experience of OSX, yet, to have an informed opinion on which OS is "better" or how "better" may be defined in terms of diverse computing needs.