68 replies [Last post]
Joseph Sprint
Joseph Sprint's picture
Offline
Enthusiast
Last seen: 5 years 15 weeks ago
Timezone: GMT+1
Joined: 2005-04-15
Posts: 381
Points: 0

Canaca

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=53.764801,-1.789285&spn=0.004494,0.007297&hl=en

Thats my street that is. Good ol' Reevy Road.

Sorry I'll go again :oops:

wolfcry911
wolfcry911's picture
Offline
Guru
MA, USA
Last seen: 5 years 41 weeks ago
MA, USA
Timezone: GMT-5
Joined: 2004-09-01
Posts: 3224
Points: 237

Canaca

tisnew, just to ease your mind -
I went back to that site and checked the nav again. You're right. If I move painstakingly slow from the main nav to the sub level, the level will disappear.

roytheboy
roytheboy's picture
Offline
Guru
North Wales, UK
Last seen: 6 years 20 weeks ago
North Wales, UK
Timezone: GMT+1
Joined: 2004-09-18
Posts: 2233
Points: 41

Canaca

Tisnew wrote:
But what I'm really vexed-about and trying to figure-out at the moment is why roy posted a link to http://maps.google.com/ as an example of a really cool firefox thing

It's a really cool web-interface thing, not a really cool Firefox thing :roll: ...and if you want the UK then go to http://maps.google.co.uk (what else!).

How can you possibly have read all the stuff I've been steering you towards and still be missing the point! Okay; one final attempt to bring you up to speed: check out this page > http://www.adaptivepath.com/publications/essays/archives/000385.php

Forget about the fact that the author and his company are trying to claim the ideas as their own (very subtly), and forget about their name of Ajax, but concentrate on the use of the various technologies. Everything to allow the deployment of real-time web applications is more-or-less in place and Google Maps is a good example. All we need now is for Microsoft to stop holding back the web to try and save it's Windows market share. Comprede?

Life's a b*tch and then you die!

DCElliott
DCElliott's picture
Offline
Leader
Halifax, Canada
Last seen: 2 years 31 weeks ago
Halifax, Canada
Timezone: GMT-3
Joined: 2004-03-22
Posts: 828
Points: 0

Canaca

Tisnew wrote:
actually I do because part of my mongrel-heritage includes Queen Victoria's personal physician Lord Lister)

Cool. I owned a house in Digby, Nova Scotia, Canada that had been built for a direct descendent of Edward Jenner, the physician who introduced Smallpox vaccination to western medicine.

Now, for a bit of commentary here. There are always wars fought for the hearts and minds of technology consumers. Beta-VHS, Mac-PC, MS-Linux, WordPerfect-Word, Gameboy-Playstation and so it goes. I won't even start with cars (But with a Subaru Legacy Wagon and a BMW Z3 you got most of your bases covered)

What makes the IE vs everbody else war so important is that IE has impaired web development through non-conforming or quirky implementation of standards. In a fair world, market competition would put an end to their domination but we have to remember, as sustained in anti-trust actions, Microsoft used its monopoly Operating System position to bundle IE (and give deals on other MS software like Office) that squeezed out other players.

The legal actions came too little, too late and the remedies were timid. However, it has left people in the industry pretty incensed and tempers run high at times.

In the web-developer world there seem to be two camps - there is the IIS school (major corporate players) that lives firmly in the MSIE grip and there is the rest which includes the corporate linux friendly crowd and many many independents. They are not gonna see eye to eye.

You can make a business case for carefully thought out standards-compliant design using XHTML and CSS. It should work on all browsers, be portable to other devices like webTV, handhelds, and play nice with accessibility devices. Furthermore, since new standards are designed to encompass older standards, code is future-proofed to a large extent. The fly in the ointment continues to be fricking IE5.5 and IE6.0. So we waste incredible amounts of time in this forum and every other web design forum NOT pushing the envelope of design but patching up the trainwrecks that IE makes out of perfectly well designed code.

And, yeah, Firefox is kinda cute, too.

DE

David Elliott

Before you ask
LearnXHTML|CSS
ValidateHTML|CSS

Hugo
Hugo's picture
Offline
Moderator
London
Last seen: 4 years 48 weeks ago
London
Joined: 2004-06-06
Posts: 15668
Points: 2806

Canaca

Here's a little more reading for you Tisnew, as if any more reason was required to loath and despise MS.

http://www.euronet.nl/users/frankvw/index.html

Before you make your first post it is vital that you READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES!
----------------------------------------------------------------
Please post ALL your code - both CSS & HTML - in [code] tags
Please validate and ensure you have included a full Doctype before posting.
Why validate? Read Me

Tisnew
Tisnew's picture
Offline
Enthusiast
MissOuri
Last seen: 14 years 27 weeks ago
MissOuri
Timezone: GMT-6
Joined: 2005-06-04
Posts: 200
Points: 0

Canaca

Thank you all, I hadn't heard from Mr. Sprint before - he seems quite centered.

So, I wanted to figure-out where Bradford, England was. And, sure enough, it's just about in the middle of everything

http//wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/time-zone/europe/uk/england/bradford/

I had my first-ever ale in Newcastle-upon-Tyne at the age of 14. That was quite a treat. And it was a sweet young lass of 14 (a cousin) that took me there. Returning to the States, I waited another seven years to have another (legally). Beer, that is. You folks do know how to live!

I also discovered that there is a Yes, England after all. Here it is

http//www.technorati.com/tag/england

"Yes, England has won the first Ashes toss of the summer."

So, this must mean that Pineapple really does have a home )

Roy, I think I get your message. It's kind of like when Mel Gibson's Braveheart and his Scot/Eire band who were up against the mighty, well-armed Longshanks. And Braveheart's so-called "brigand" army of peasant-invaders turned-around and lifted-up their kilts to show their rear-ends to Longshanks. An act of defiance that won the hearts of movie-goers everywhere! But, back-then, Longshanks was not amused.

Pineapple, how are you doing so far?

I hope you'll pardon the movie metaphor, but I gather Mr. Gates is Longshanks.

In terms of technology advancements, one of the chief gurus asked me whether there were compelling reasons for my having chosen ASP NET 2.0 and its MSFT development platform over something else. I was remiss in answering; for that, I apologize. And, admittedly, I too have become lost in this thread!

But getting back in focus, and in reading some of the material about this, it occurred to me that its new functionality for the web server-client interface is very-much like what I've been doing on mainframes. That is the only compelling draw. Something familiar. The architecture enables a client-based piece of code to spawn "invisible" activit(ies) that communicate with the server and exchange pieces of information. All the while, the end-user at the client is oblivious to these goings-on.

In TPF and ALCS, an application can spawn many subroutines ("behind-code" I think is the term in web-speak), so alot of work can get done that in no way interferes with the main user-pc interface; but instead supports it by providing data finds and file update(Drunk, for example, as a side-process.

I imagine an application (many applications) in the web server-client world that is first ported to the client, then as the human is moving his mouse toward an object (whether it be an image or a text field or a whatever) the clint snivelet, heuristically-trained from past experience, "knows" to alert the server that the "next thing" this end-user is most likely to need will be a whatchamacallit on his display-surface and, so, the server delivers the whatchamacallit just a fraction of a second before the human actually asks for it.

If I do understand this ASP.NET 2.0 thing correctly, it can deliver as little as a pixel on-client-demand (without human invocation) to anywhere within the client's universe. And, I feel, that is a really cool thing. And way beyond what I got to do working for corporate-fiefdom-America and its stodgy dumb-terminal delivery systems.

A crust eaten in peace is better than a banquet partaken in anxiety --- Aesop

Tisnew
Tisnew's picture
Offline
Enthusiast
MissOuri
Last seen: 14 years 27 weeks ago
MissOuri
Timezone: GMT-6
Joined: 2005-06-04
Posts: 200
Points: 0

Canaca

Oops! Almost forgot, ya know, England IS on Roy's map that he posted! (See attached)

It's in the middle of the Pacific Ocean for some reason. But rest-assured, I'm not going to try to figure that one out.

Thanks, wolf, for double-checking. Go Patriots!

A crust eaten in peace is better than a banquet partaken in anxiety --- Aesop

HellsBells
HellsBells's picture
Offline
Leader
Bedford, UK
Last seen: 11 years 32 weeks ago
Bedford, UK
Joined: 2004-04-07
Posts: 851
Points: 0

Canaca

Tisnew wrote:

Roy, I think I get your message. It's kind of like when Mel Gibson's Braveheart and his Scot/Eire band who were up against the mighty, well-armed Longshanks. And Braveheart's so-called "brigand" army of peasant-invaders turned-around and lifted-up their kilts to show their rear-ends to Longshanks. An act of defiance that won the hearts of movie-goers everywhere! But, back-then, Longshanks was not amused.

Not a good metaphor because a) that film was a load of old rubbish and b) "Braveheart" ended up hung drawn and quartered.

What I don't understand is why the public at large don't see that MS is costing them money - time is money and we spend a lot of time trying to get sites working in IE as well as standards compliant browsers which our clients end up paying for.

What worries me is if MS ditches the whole xhtml/xml thing and moves off on a tangent (just because they can) - what do we do? We'll end up having no choice but to work in their environment if they hold such a grip on the market. Can you imagine trying to sell a site to a client that's standard compliant, accessible etc but doesn't work on IE? Not going to happen.

My strategy is so simple an idiot could have devised it!

"Also, your CSS (no offence) makes me want to gouge my eyes out with a rusty spoon" - TPH

briski
briski's picture
Offline
Elder
London
Last seen: 7 years 26 weeks ago
London
Timezone: GMT+1
Joined: 2004-02-16
Posts: 1066
Points: 0

Canaca

Tisnew wrote:
Oops! Almost forgot, ya know, England IS on Roy's map that he posted! (See attached)

It's in the middle of the Pacific Ocean for some reason. But rest-assured, I'm not going to try to figure that one out.

Thanks, wolf, for double-checking. Go Patriots!

No that looks much more like the Atlantic Ocean to me Wink

HellsBells wrote:
Not a good metaphor because a) that film was a load of old rubbish and b) "Braveheart" ended up hung drawn and quartered.

and C) Mel Gibson is a bufoon of the highest order. It's a crying shame to link him to such a fine and noble cause like the cutsey Firefox.

HellsBells wrote:
What I don't understand is why the public at large don't see that MS is costing them money - time is money and we spend a lot of time trying to get sites working in IE as well as standards compliant browsers which our clients end up paying for.

The problem is that the people paying you to get things working in IE are not generally the people using the site. People at home really don't get the point of stopping using IE. I've even spelled it out to people and go back days later to still find them using IE 5.5 or all things. They don't see the countless thousands (millions?) of wasted man hours a year, they don't see the extra 5p on anything they buy on the web to pay for this, they just see a little blue E that's easy to click.

They don't get it and as long as they don't companies will have to waste that cash wether they want to or not because the site visitor is king.

Oh I'm so depressed now, stupid users! Wink

roytheboy
roytheboy's picture
Offline
Guru
North Wales, UK
Last seen: 6 years 20 weeks ago
North Wales, UK
Timezone: GMT+1
Joined: 2004-09-18
Posts: 2233
Points: 41

Canaca

Hugo wrote:
Here's a little more reading for you Tisnew, as if any more reason was required to loath and despise MS. http://www.euronet.nl/users/frankvw/index.html

As someone who has grown up with the development of computers, and who has worked with them in a professional capacity since the late seventies (off-and-on), I found this lengthy summary of all these years to be very interesting. Like many, I saw it all happen in real-time and am seeing it happen today - I have no problem reading between the lines. The author has a fantastic ability to 'see the bigger picture' and has done his homework many times over. I don't have the time to read it all at the moment (plus it makes me sooooo angry that I can only stand to read it in small chunks), but a few sections have grabbed my eye so far and I would like to reproduce them here for those who do not have the time or interest to read the whole paper:

On Microsoft's overall business strategy...
"It's a simple strategy: divide and conquer. Prevent information exchange through proprietary protocols and formats. Encourage or force users to use your applications and bind them to your own protocols. Make them use software that will only run on your own platform. Pollute existing global standards as much as possible, and induce service providers to use proprietary protocol extensions. Force your business partners to do the same. Do not provide new opportunities for the user community by offering better technology, but instead sabotage the interoperability of other products and standards, and smother any progress and development of competing technology."

On the current effect of Microsoft's business strategy...
"The rot has now spread so far that this also affects many software and content developers. Web designers automatically assume that their web sites will be viewed on a PC, and if you're lucky they'll write code that runs on both Netscape and Microsoft browsers. (As if those were the only ones around.) Application developers usually aren't much better either. They write software for Windows, period. Even they just don't know any better. Even in Windows itself you can see that portions of the code have been created by junior programmers who have never known a more robust environment. Nor is this surprising. Most IT students only encounter Windows these days. Most of them have never seen a text-mode interface, they don't know that there are other OS's than Windows out there or how they work, and their understanding of what lies beneath the Windows GUI is rudimentary at best. They've never seen robust software, let alone learned how to write any. Still these students are supposed to become tomorrow's IT workers."

On why companies buy Windows...
"And that is the basis on which many IT managers choose the platforms for their future investments! That, and the comforting knowledge that 'nobody ever got fired for buying Microsoft.' God help us."

On .Net...
"After more than a decade of having milked Windows for all it was worth, it's becoming increasingly obvious that Windows revenues won't last forever. The answer is both simple and complex: Microsoft needs to find a new way of ensuring revenues in future years. Since Microsoft Windows and server products are an excellent means of tying the user community to proprietary protocols and services, it stands to reason to use it to leverage the user community into a new dependency. Enter Microsoft's new .Net (dot-net) strategy.

"The idea is simple. Start partnerships with large information and service providers on the Internet. Then set up a bunch of web services, and bundle clients that use those web services with Windows, so that the user will get it 'for free'. Gradually discontinue support for the service in software. Start with trivial things like software activation and registration, user authentication and software maintenance, and then move on to things like payment services, address books and appointment schedulers, and finally to web-based applications. Initially offer the new services for free or for a low entry fee, and when user dependency is at a sufficiently high level, start charging serious subscription fees. And there you are. This future has already begun. The first implementations of this new strategy are already visible in Windows XP.

More on .Net...
"But we won't have any choice: the .Net platform will be gradually incorporated in all new versions of major Microsoft products. So each time we're forced to buy another upgrade in order to maintain compatibility with the rest of the world, a piece of the .Net framework comes with it, so eventually the whole scheme will be forced upon us. Microsoft has announced that the extensions to implement the .Net Framework in existing OS products will be free. Right.

"Where have we heard this before? Microsoft has given away products for free in the past: web browsers and media players come to mind. Each and every time they gave away free software their ultimate purpose was to kill off a competing product that might have offered a viable alternative to the user. And now the .Net Framework extensions will be free? Sure... Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes."

On Mac OSX...
"Recently more and more readers of this paper point out that this ideal OS already exists in the form of Apple's OSX 10.2. And they do have a point: OSX consists of a FreeBSD kernel with a user-friendly GUI on top of it. Unfortunately OSX is still too hardware-dependent --it runs exclusively on Apple hardware-- and Apple is unable to change this. Not for technical reasons; porting OSX should be fairly trivial. The problem is that Apple cannot survive without their hardware sales. OSX on other platforms such as the PC could very well ruin Apple's hardware sales figures and mean the end of the company, even though OSX is likely to perform much better on Apple hardware than on PC hardware. (Apple's hardware architecture is less burdened with legacy issues and performs better in general.) Then there's the fact that Apple is financially fairly dependent of Microsoft and of course the Mac version of MS Office is their only toehold on the general corporate desktop. The bottom line is that Apple cannot afford to challenge Microsoft, so OSX is not going to replace Windows anytime soon. A set of well-designed, robust, stable and user-friendly software for office environments running on inexpensive hardware such as the PC would be a true innovation. But Microsoft clearly isn't up to that job, and thanks to Microsoft's marketing strategy, we can't expect it from anyone else either, at least not in the foreseeable future."

On Firefox...
"Internet Explorer 6 has been released years ago, and has been in maintenance mode ever since. Only in response to the hugely popular Mozilla Firefox webbrowser (an Open Source project) Microsoft decided to start development of IE7, with the deliberate intention of adding many features that IE6 lacked and Firefox has. Not only does this prove that freedom of competition, and not a monopoly, drives innovation, but it also clearly shows that Open Source is not a cancer but rather a cure. The fact that IE7 will only run on XP and not on Windows 2000 on the other hand illustrates one of the many ailments in need of such a cure."

Summing up the entire paper...
"Microsoft's track record speaks for itself. Decades of non-innovation and monopolist practices. Legal procedures, lies that border on perjury (and perhaps even cross that line) and finally a ruling by the DoJ that Microsoft mostly ignored. Nothing but rewrapped old technology from competing products, touted as the hottest thing since sliced bread and even marketed as a cost saver. Nothing but misinformation, FUD and outright lies on web pages aimed at the ignorant. Suggestions that TCP/IP is a Microsoft protocol, claims that the integration of Internet Explorer and Media Player in Windows is a technical necessity, unrealistic promises about cost savings and reliability, slanderous untruths about competing companies and products, and attempts to paint the Open Source community as being fascist."

The author's closing words...
"Microsoft has stunted the true growth of computer technology under the guise of innovation. They have manipulated technology in order to force their customers to turn to Microsoft as a sole supplier. They have driven up the cost of computing in order to spike their own revenues, and behaved in ways that show contempt for their customers and the law. They have shown a tendency towards lying and general dishonesty. And with a towering display of hypocrisy they keep telling us that everything they have done has only been in response to public demand for innovation and to the needs of the IT professional. That is why I hate Microsoft. Microsoft isn't the answer. Microsoft is the question. And the answer is 'No'."

Life's a b*tch and then you die!

roytheboy
roytheboy's picture
Offline
Guru
North Wales, UK
Last seen: 6 years 20 weeks ago
North Wales, UK
Timezone: GMT+1
Joined: 2004-09-18
Posts: 2233
Points: 41

Canaca

HellsBells wrote:
What worries me is if MS ditches the whole xhtml/xml thing and moves off on a tangent (just because they can) - what do we do? We'll end up having no choice but to work in their environment if they hold such a grip on the market. Can you imagine trying to sell a site to a client that's standard compliant, accessible etc but doesn't work on IE? Not going to happen.

Life moves in cycles; things change; revolutions happen. As I say above: I've watched the whole sad state of affairs happen before my eyes (as you have too I believe), but I've never seen the pace of change pick-up like it is at the moment.

We've seen more significant events happen in the last few years than at any other time during Microsoft's reign of terror on the innovative world. Firefox is rapidly gaining a foothold in the browser market; website designers who are turning to CSS are gradually starting to cotton-on to what Microsoft has been doing all these years (this thread being a fine example of this effect in action); Apple are at last being seen as an innovative and 'cool' company by a worldwide audience (due to the ipod but the 'hallo' effect is happening); Linux is increasingly being seen as a viable alternative for the desktop model in the corporate environment (many of the world's biggest companies already have unix at the core of their systems); and all the incoming accessibility legislation is driving more and more web developers towards global (non-microsoft) presentation standards.

Individually these shifts in perception and practice are almost meaningless, but collectively they are a sign that Microsoft's dominance is on the decline. It only needs a few more collective shifts in the development or use of technology and the dinosaur that is Microsoft will be too big and cumbersome to respond swiftly enough.

That's the natural way of things in the commercial world you see; the bigger a company gets, the slower it is able to respond to change. It happens to them all in the end. It's part of life's natural cycle and I truly believe that I will live to see the day when Microsoft becomes an also-ran. That's what keeps me going when I'm wasting day after unpaid day trying to hack my work about so that it will look good and function correctly in IE! I can feel it in my bones: the shift has started Wink

Life's a b*tch and then you die!

Hugo
Hugo's picture
Offline
Moderator
London
Last seen: 4 years 48 weeks ago
London
Joined: 2004-06-06
Posts: 15668
Points: 2806

Canaca

I find it a very well written paper and sums up neatly the problems and it is the points in this paper that make my blood boil when discussions start on the old Microsoft isn't so bad style of discussion, what that company has got away with is beyond f****** belief, they have caused so much harm to this industry.

The Apple comments are interesting and has always been my problem with them that they are tied to their hardware, as said if only they could release the OS to the PC, that would put a rocket up MS's ar*se.

Do hope you've read the article Tisnew.

Hugo.

Before you make your first post it is vital that you READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES!
----------------------------------------------------------------
Please post ALL your code - both CSS & HTML - in [code] tags
Please validate and ensure you have included a full Doctype before posting.
Why validate? Read Me

Joseph Sprint
Joseph Sprint's picture
Offline
Enthusiast
Last seen: 5 years 15 weeks ago
Timezone: GMT+1
Joined: 2005-04-15
Posts: 381
Points: 0

Canaca

I come from middle earth I do. Arrr.

Tisnew, you've seen Lord Of The Rings havn't you, most of the shire scenes were shot on location at the end of my street.

Yorkshire, Shire, Yorkshire, Shire, Yorkshire, Shire, ged-it.

It wasn't called middle earth for nothing you know. Laughing out loud

Tisnew
Tisnew's picture
Offline
Enthusiast
MissOuri
Last seen: 14 years 27 weeks ago
MissOuri
Timezone: GMT-6
Joined: 2005-06-04
Posts: 200
Points: 0

Canaca

I showed my girlfriend Mr. Elliott's dancing picture.

Boy, was that ever a mistake!

She responded with, "He's a really good dancer!"

So, is tisnew going to have to take dancing lessons? Uggh!

Thanks, Mr. Elliott. roll

A crust eaten in peace is better than a banquet partaken in anxiety --- Aesop

DCElliott
DCElliott's picture
Offline
Leader
Halifax, Canada
Last seen: 2 years 31 weeks ago
Halifax, Canada
Timezone: GMT-3
Joined: 2004-03-22
Posts: 828
Points: 0

Canaca

Mr. Elliott was my father. . .

Allowable ways to refer to DCElliott include:
DC, DCE, DE, David, (and if you wanted to be really formal: Dr. Elliott)

Not allowed:
Doc, Dave (and don't call me late for dinner)

Women love guys who can dance, investing in some lambada lessons could change your life.

Just have to give up your inhibitions a little - you could be famous.

DE

David Elliott

Before you ask
LearnXHTML|CSS
ValidateHTML|CSS

Tisnew
Tisnew's picture
Offline
Enthusiast
MissOuri
Last seen: 14 years 27 weeks ago
MissOuri
Timezone: GMT-6
Joined: 2005-06-04
Posts: 200
Points: 0

Canaca

Had to look that up - "The word lambada refers both to the rhythm - a fusion of carimbó and merengue - and to the dance, which incorporates elements of forró, samba, merengue and maxixe (the 19th century Brazilian dance which was a tremendous success in Europe). The dance is sexy, yes..." (stop there)

http//www.maria-brazil.org/lambada.htm

That's alot of stuff all mixed-up together. Kinda like css, html, xml, etc.

A crust eaten in peace is better than a banquet partaken in anxiety --- Aesop

Tisnew
Tisnew's picture
Offline
Enthusiast
MissOuri
Last seen: 14 years 27 weeks ago
MissOuri
Timezone: GMT-6
Joined: 2005-06-04
Posts: 200
Points: 0

Canaca

Gary said, "I still can't get it to separate out colors when doing my laundry, but it does everything else just fine."

:idea:

If I understand your requirements, you'd like a development-tool that would separate one laundry-color from another laundry-color.
Is that correct?

You've posed quite an intellectual challenge here. Let me think about this, and get back to you with some possible solutions in a day or two, possibly longer... Laughing out loud

A crust eaten in peace is better than a banquet partaken in anxiety --- Aesop

roytheboy
roytheboy's picture
Offline
Guru
North Wales, UK
Last seen: 6 years 20 weeks ago
North Wales, UK
Timezone: GMT+1
Joined: 2004-09-18
Posts: 2233
Points: 41

Canaca

DCElliott wrote:
Just have to give up your inhibitions

Laughing out loud ...love it Laughing out loud

Life's a b*tch and then you die!