25 replies [Last post]
thepineapplehead
thepineapplehead's picture
Offline
Moderator
Last seen: 22 weeks 4 days ago
Timezone: GMT+1
Joined: 2004-06-30
Posts: 9683
Points: 819

Post split from Positioning Issues re: flash navigation

One of the most popular PC companies is Microsoft, and they can't do anything right Laughing out loud

Flash is bad. It's only useful for non-content things; like adverts; which are blocked by adblock.

Really, ditch flash and learn how to make real websites Wink

Verschwindende wrote:
  • CSS doesn't make pies

Tags:
Hugo
Hugo's picture
Offline
Moderator
London
Last seen: 7 years 38 weeks ago
London
Joined: 2004-06-06
Posts: 15668
Points: 2806

Why Flash is Bad

Creating whole sites using a proprietary method such as Flash is the very antithesis of true coding, everything that is discussed day in day out here.

It has absolutely no relationship to real web site creation for all the reasons already mentioned.

I would prefer that discussions of Flash were never countenanced here
As I, like many I have a deep hatred of it and the seductive ability it has to woo people who have no knowledge of how real web sites are created.

It's name is a perfect description of it's worth, Flash by name, Flash by nature and little real substance.

Hugo.

Before you make your first post it is vital that you READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES!
----------------------------------------------------------------
Please post ALL your code - both CSS & HTML - in [code] tags
Please validate and ensure you have included a full Doctype before posting.
Why validate? Read Me

roytheboy
roytheboy's picture
Offline
Guru
North Wales, UK
Last seen: 9 years 9 weeks ago
North Wales, UK
Timezone: GMT+1
Joined: 2004-09-18
Posts: 2233
Points: 41

Why Flash is Bad

...don't pussyfoot around Hugo - just come right out and say what you really think Laughing out loud

Life's a b*tch and then you die!

thepineapplehead
thepineapplehead's picture
Offline
Moderator
Last seen: 22 weeks 4 days ago
Timezone: GMT+1
Joined: 2004-06-30
Posts: 9683
Points: 819

Why Flash is Bad

Even worse is it taking nearly a minute to load up on broadband. I'd hate to be a dial-up user.

The logo in the top right and buyers guide in the bottom right would be better off static gifs as opposed to animated flash.

I think we've scared him off Laughing out loud

Verschwindende wrote:
  • CSS doesn't make pies

roytheboy
roytheboy's picture
Offline
Guru
North Wales, UK
Last seen: 9 years 9 weeks ago
North Wales, UK
Timezone: GMT+1
Joined: 2004-09-18
Posts: 2233
Points: 41

Why Flash is Bad

thepineapplehead wrote:
I think we've scared him off Laughing out loud

We have done our best to point him/her in the right direction, so we've 'done our bit' Smile

Life's a b*tch and then you die!

thepineapplehead
thepineapplehead's picture
Offline
Moderator
Last seen: 22 weeks 4 days ago
Timezone: GMT+1
Joined: 2004-06-30
Posts: 9683
Points: 819

Why Flash is Bad

Verschwindende wrote:
  • CSS doesn't make pies

Hugo
Hugo's picture
Offline
Moderator
London
Last seen: 7 years 38 weeks ago
London
Joined: 2004-06-06
Posts: 15668
Points: 2806

Why Flash is Bad

Has this thread been split?

Before you make your first post it is vital that you READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES!
----------------------------------------------------------------
Please post ALL your code - both CSS & HTML - in [code] tags
Please validate and ensure you have included a full Doctype before posting.
Why validate? Read Me

thepineapplehead
thepineapplehead's picture
Offline
Moderator
Last seen: 22 weeks 4 days ago
Timezone: GMT+1
Joined: 2004-06-30
Posts: 9683
Points: 819

Why Flash is Bad

Whatever gave you that idea?

Yes, I felt it was veering away from the original topic, so I split the flash discussion into here.

Mind you, I don't know if the guy is coming back Laughing out loud

Verschwindende wrote:
  • CSS doesn't make pies

Hugo
Hugo's picture
Offline
Moderator
London
Last seen: 7 years 38 weeks ago
London
Joined: 2004-06-06
Posts: 15668
Points: 2806

Why Flash is Bad

Possibly not Smile
I may not have helped matters with my balanced reasoned argument :roll:

Before you make your first post it is vital that you READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES!
----------------------------------------------------------------
Please post ALL your code - both CSS & HTML - in [code] tags
Please validate and ensure you have included a full Doctype before posting.
Why validate? Read Me

thepineapplehead
thepineapplehead's picture
Offline
Moderator
Last seen: 22 weeks 4 days ago
Timezone: GMT+1
Joined: 2004-06-30
Posts: 9683
Points: 819

Why Flash is Bad

Mind you, I found it hilarious. Sarcasm may be the lowest form of wit, but it is [email protected] funny at times Laughing out loud

Verschwindende wrote:
  • CSS doesn't make pies

briski
briski's picture
Offline
Elder
London
Last seen: 10 years 15 weeks ago
London
Timezone: GMT+1
Joined: 2004-02-16
Posts: 1066
Points: 0

Why Flash is Bad

thepineapplehead wrote:
Yes, I felt it was veering away from the original topic, so I split the flash discussion into here.

Guys if you split posts can you post the link to the original thread? It's very confusing otherwise and makes for some very odd starting posts Wink

larmyia
Offline
Elder
London
Last seen: 14 years 2 weeks ago
London
Timezone: GMT+1
Joined: 2005-01-25
Posts: 1060
Points: 0

Why Flash is Bad

thepineapplehead wrote:
Mind you, I found it hilarious. Sarcasm may be the lowest form of wit, but it is [email protected] funny at times Laughing out loud

highest form of intelligence!

larmyia

nix
nix's picture
Offline
Enthusiast
(n): a position or site occupied or available for occupancy or marked by some distinguishing feature
Last seen: 13 years 18 weeks ago
(n): a position or site occupied or available for occupancy or marked by some distinguishing feature
Timezone: GMT-4
Joined: 2003-08-12
Posts: 159
Points: 0

Why Flash is Bad

So, you guys don't like flash, loathe tables and are validation phreaks. Well, i guess I can always forget my doctype to see pineapplehead get mad too. Man this forum's great. Tongue

Flash has it's place. It makes the monkeys clap their hands and say OOH....

Well, it does.

I refuse to be like the faceless masses of sheep and have a signatu......awwwwwwwww CRAP!!

Backups? Ha! I've never had troub**&{[}$$ERROR NO CARRIER

thepineapplehead
thepineapplehead's picture
Offline
Moderator
Last seen: 22 weeks 4 days ago
Timezone: GMT+1
Joined: 2004-06-30
Posts: 9683
Points: 819

Why Flash is Bad

I didn't say I don't like flash. Flash is useful for things like small online games, or adverts (which are blocked by Adblock, anyways Laughing out loud)

Flash IS BAD for simple things like navigation and content.

Making an entire flash based site - well, 'nuff said :twisted:

Verschwindende wrote:
  • CSS doesn't make pies

Hugo
Hugo's picture
Offline
Moderator
London
Last seen: 7 years 38 weeks ago
London
Joined: 2004-06-06
Posts: 15668
Points: 2806

Why Flash is Bad

No Flash is horrible, nasty, has no redeeming qualities whatsoever, loathsome, vile, beyond the pale, I really do not like it much, actually I really do not like it very much.

Before you make your first post it is vital that you READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES!
----------------------------------------------------------------
Please post ALL your code - both CSS & HTML - in [code] tags
Please validate and ensure you have included a full Doctype before posting.
Why validate? Read Me

briski
briski's picture
Offline
Elder
London
Last seen: 10 years 15 weeks ago
London
Timezone: GMT+1
Joined: 2004-02-16
Posts: 1066
Points: 0

Why Flash is Bad

Not keen on flash then? Wink

I think I'm with TPH here - it has it's place, a VERY small place well away from me but thereneverthe less.

thepineapplehead
thepineapplehead's picture
Offline
Moderator
Last seen: 22 weeks 4 days ago
Timezone: GMT+1
Joined: 2004-06-30
Posts: 9683
Points: 819

Why Flash is Bad

THe worst use of flash, apart from navigation, has to be flash intros.

If you MUST have one, have the following:

Skip Intro text (this will be clicked by 99.9% of people immediately)
A loading bar WITH meaningful marks, eg not just a looping animation, one that tells us how much is left.

Verschwindende wrote:
  • CSS doesn't make pies

nix
nix's picture
Offline
Enthusiast
(n): a position or site occupied or available for occupancy or marked by some distinguishing feature
Last seen: 13 years 18 weeks ago
(n): a position or site occupied or available for occupancy or marked by some distinguishing feature
Timezone: GMT-4
Joined: 2003-08-12
Posts: 159
Points: 0

Why Flash is Bad

One exception however...

http://www.homestarrunner.com

I refuse to be like the faceless masses of sheep and have a signatu......awwwwwwwww CRAP!!

Backups? Ha! I've never had troub**&{[}$$ERROR NO CARRIER

briski
briski's picture
Offline
Elder
London
Last seen: 10 years 15 weeks ago
London
Timezone: GMT+1
Joined: 2004-02-16
Posts: 1066
Points: 0

Why Flash is Bad

Nope that's just as annoying as all the other silly flash based sites i'm affraid Wink

Held my attention for about 10 seconds before I got annoyed with it.

antibland
antibland's picture
Offline
Leader
Pittsburgh
Last seen: 13 years 38 weeks ago
Pittsburgh
Joined: 2005-01-17
Posts: 603
Points: 0

Why Flash is Bad

briski wrote:
Nope that's just as annoying as all the other silly flash based sites i'm affraid Wink

Held my attention for about 10 seconds before I got annoyed with it.

C'mon briski, Strongbad emails held many surfers' attention circa 2003. While they may fail to deliver today, they did at one time, and couldn't have without flash. That being said, I hate flash and wish it went away to a quiet place to die.

- Antibland

thepineapplehead
thepineapplehead's picture
Offline
Moderator
Last seen: 22 weeks 4 days ago
Timezone: GMT+1
Joined: 2004-06-30
Posts: 9683
Points: 819

Why Flash is Bad

Couldn't have put it better myself:

http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail51.html

Watch it and laugh (or cry) - it's funny because it's true Laughing out loud

Verschwindende wrote:
  • CSS doesn't make pies

roytheboy
roytheboy's picture
Offline
Guru
North Wales, UK
Last seen: 9 years 9 weeks ago
North Wales, UK
Timezone: GMT+1
Joined: 2004-09-18
Posts: 2233
Points: 41

Why Flash is Bad

For these sorts of animated movies and cartoons, Flash is absolutely ideal and great fun. It allows designers to unleash their creative talents and I for one am very impressed with this particular site. But that's where Flash's strengths begin and end: for specialist communications with a well defined target audience where it does not matter if that message fails to be delivered. IMHO it has little or no place in a modern commercial web-environment beyond what I just said.

Life's a b*tch and then you die!

lordelric
lordelric's picture
Offline
Regular
Chicago-land
Last seen: 17 years 28 weeks ago
Chicago-land
Timezone: GMT-6
Joined: 2005-03-20
Posts: 37
Points: 0

Flash sucks on dial up

Being a dal up user at home (DSL not available yet), I find flash to be truly annoying. Especially sites where the bulk is made from flash. Often I just hit back and never look at the site.
It sucks having to sit there and wait while it downloads.

The minute we get people away from the Bang, Zoom whiz aspect of it, the better off all of us will be.

davidb2002
Offline
newbie
Last seen: 17 years 14 weeks ago
Joined: 2005-06-27
Posts: 5
Points: 0

Why Flash is Bad

I have to agree somewhat with both sides.

In this world of web developement there are 2 types of people, designers and coders. Designers see what looks good, Coders see whats more efficient and to-the-point.

From a graphic designers point of view, Flash is another great tool that allows the designer to make even more amazing content. Yes, flashy, yes heavy load time, yes could be more efficient with gifs. But, what graphic designers have to watch out for is what flash should and shouldnt be used for. Its alright for graphics that do not divert the attention from the main content, ie, header pictures that just look smoother in animation than gifs, and are more visually appealing than not having animation. although, I am also a strong believe that less movement is best. Thats why designers should be very careful in creating a flash file. Rule of thumb to all designs: dont divert attention from the REAL content.

From a coders point of view, Flash is useless. Why would any coder spend hours in flash making a website layout, when with just a few lines of code can pop out a css layout that is much easier to customize and easier on loading time. Flash is truely useless to coders.

But, as for many others my age with my sort of background, I have messed in both graphics and coding. So therefor I am constantly in 2 minds trying to figure out what looks best that doesnt divert from the content. I am a coder at heart, but find that I do have some skill in graphics and animation, so why not use it to my advantage.

So my end verdict, Flash: not good for content, but good for some design.

DONT USE FLASH FOR:
- layouts - think of the little people (56kers)
- buttons - think of the little people again (56kers/non flashers)
- intros - think of the purpose (why an intro, its like a splash page)

USE FLASH FOR:
- things you cant do with other files
- only when you know what your doing

So, flash is good and flash is bad, at the end of the day, its your site, so you decide.

sanch3x
Offline
Enthusiast
Last seen: 13 years 2 hours ago
Timezone: GMT-4
Joined: 2005-05-27
Posts: 223
Points: 2

Why Flash is Bad

Hehehe funny this thread should rise up, just this weekend a colleague of mine showed me the website of the restaurant he was just hired to work at. The site is of course, made entirely in flash.

I told him how horrible it was and explained to him why and it really angered him. He tried to counter every point but he was very misinformed. I tried explaining to him but he refused to listen.

Funny thing is, when I told him that it wasn't search engine friendly he laughed at me thinking I was wrong since he had found the site on google/yahoo. I told him to search for a "menu" on his site (since there was a listed menu in the flash) and when he found none he proceeded with name calling.

I can seriously say that flash has damaged my relationship with a comrade, he has yet to apologize for calling me a distant cousin of the female wolf. Laughing out loud

Seb

"Don't worry about Blank let me worry about Blank"

geo__
Offline
Regular
Last seen: 17 years 18 weeks ago
Joined: 2005-05-27
Posts: 16
Points: 0

Why Flash is Bad

flash skip intro button=most pressed button on the web
flash=not search engine friendly
takes forever to load.
However, some people like fancy things, and when you show a flash site to a client is impressed. Of course he doesn't know anything about web development.
Also, I wonder if you can make a really dynamic site with flash. There is some integration with php but i don't think a good one.
And for pure dynamic sites I don't think it's possible with flash.