33 replies [Last post]
Hugo
Hugo's picture
Offline
Moderator
London
Last seen: 5 years 46 weeks ago
London
Joined: 2004-06-06
Posts: 15668
Points: 2806

Why when we all swear by and pledge our undying allegiance to the Firefox are 51% of us browsing this forum with IE :-s :?

Before you make your first post it is vital that you READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES!
----------------------------------------------------------------
Please post ALL your code - both CSS & HTML - in [code] tags
Please validate and ensure you have included a full Doctype before posting.
Why validate? Read Me

Tags:
rmfred
rmfred's picture
Offline
Elder
Rock Springs, WY
Last seen: 2 years 7 weeks ago
Rock Springs, WY
Timezone: GMT-6
Joined: 2004-01-31
Posts: 1073
Points: 31

51% browsing with IE ?

NOT ME not me he says loudly... only FF 4me.. I NEVER browse with IE unless I have to... which is only when someone on the forum has a question relating to IE...
Am I off the hook now?

briski
briski's picture
Offline
Elder
London
Last seen: 8 years 23 weeks ago
London
Timezone: GMT+1
Joined: 2004-02-16
Posts: 1066
Points: 0

51% browsing with IE ?

Strange, I was thinking just the same thing.

I also noticed that the percentage seems to drop slightly as the day goes on for me, I wonder if this means there are more people to the east of me using IE then the west - Hmm. In anycase, if you're using IE Stop it, stop it now!
Silly browser Wink

rbolwerk
rbolwerk's picture
Offline
Enthusiast
Last seen: 13 years 40 weeks ago
Joined: 2004-11-30
Posts: 71
Points: 0

Re: 51% browsing with IE ?

Hugo wrote:
Why when we all swear by and pledge our undying allegiance to the Firefox are 51% of us browsing this forum with IE :-s :?

Hugo, please speak for yourself: I don't swear by Firefox.

Yes Firefox is great but IE6 has its place too in the list of greatest browsers ever. Certainly the last couple of years it was IE who pulled the internet and not the likes of Netscape.

Sometimes I find this Bill Gates bashing a little silly and irritating.

As a developer I greatly appreciate the complexity in a browser. I have written a browser myself. IE6 has added complexity as it has the ability to be integrated into other applications.

For a programmer the object model from IE is extremely powerfull.

There are still many things I can not do with Firefox which I can with IE in terms of programming, so I certainly will not swear by Firefox.

The thing that really gets me going though that everything Bill makes is per definition rubbish, not good etc.. As far as I am concerned Bill makes fantastic software, so fantastic in fact that the whole world is using his stuff.

This worldwide market domination puts him in a complete different league and all the hacking and security attacks will only make his stuff better.

Having said that I am at the same time really pissed off with him for not updating some of the faulds that IE has.

In this respect I am really hoping that Firefox will become a major player in the browser market.

roytheboy
roytheboy's picture
Offline
Guru
North Wales, UK
Last seen: 7 years 17 weeks ago
North Wales, UK
Timezone: GMT+1
Joined: 2004-09-18
Posts: 2233
Points: 41

51% browsing with IE ?

Light blue touch-paper and stand well clear Laughing out loud

I'm sorry rbolwerk (isn't a 'Bolwerk' a Dutch city wall or perimeter?), but I've sat back since the 70s and watched the whole personal computer industry take shape. I've watched Apple launch the home computer concept (with help from the Xerox team of course); I've watched Bill Gates grow his business brilliantly from a purely commercial perspective; and I've watched time and time again as truly great innovators are ripped off (in so many different ways) by BG. The whole culture at Micro$oft stinks, and when you look at the trail he has carved in his wake, BG should be ashamed of himself and his company.

As for IE: like everything else Micro$oft does, it's a heap of $h*t that should be a hundred times better given Micro$oft's huge resources and budget. Micro$oft cares for no one other than Micro$oft.

Next you'll be saying that Windoze is a good OS Laughing out loud

I'm sorry rbolwerk; everyone's entitled to their opinion but mine is that you're talking rubbish - even if you have written your own browser (which I haven't). How can you fail to look at the bigger picture and not see Micro$oft for what it is? ...but how silly of me; I mean, they invented the internet didn't they Laughing out loud :lol:

...let the flame war commence Wink

Life's a b*tch and then you die!

rbolwerk
rbolwerk's picture
Offline
Enthusiast
Last seen: 13 years 40 weeks ago
Joined: 2004-11-30
Posts: 71
Points: 0

51% browsing with IE ?

Well, well ... roytheboy from Kent, the garden of England.

tnx for disagreeing with me because now the flame war can indeed commence. Smile

Well done with regard to the meaning of my surname, not many people know that. Smile

In good gest of course, the following:

The point is Roy, I am looking at the bigger picture here, I said: " IE6 has its place too in the list of greatest browsers ever". If you deny this then you are not looking at the bigger picture. You can not deny that over the years IE has been at the top! And because of this Bill has been a shaper of the internet more than any other person (Yes, including Tim Bernes Lee , excuse me if I misspell his name)

WHY?

Partly because Bill made deals with all pc suppliers to put his OS + browser on their systems.

Partly, because it was a good marketing job.

But also because there was nothing decent about which could compete with IE. Yeah well, I am a little harse here, I suppose Netscape was something. The point is that for many years IE was the best, simply because 90% of the internet community used it.

FireFox is the first serious competition to IE, and as I said above, I like it very much. I hope that it can live up to its expectations and its introduction will do the whole market a lot of good. Now that was where I was coming from.

You Roytheboy seem to be pissed off at Bill Gates just because he has been seriously succesful in business.

It seems a bit silly and childish Tongue

"Next you'll be saying that Windoze is a good OS"

Well YES I would say that windows is a good OS. If it is really that bad and if others are really so good, why are they not more popular! The market decides for itself.

Sure enough Lunix is doing well (Enterprise market only) but it has still a hard time competing with Windows.

Novell jumped on the open source bandwagon in the hope that they can get back in the race on the back of the popularity it has at the moment.

So yes, windows is as far as I am concerned a good OS.

I did NOT say great, I said good!

"not see Micro$oft for what it is?", I do see Microsoft for what it is. its a money making machine and a very good one!

What wrong with making money?

----

This one is to get you really going Wink:

"I mean, they invented the internet didn't they" -- Somebody invents something but that somebody never really gets to shape it.

I always compare it to the English and their invention of soccer:

They might have invented it but they are rubbish at it. Smile (sorry ... its how I feel)

Tim might have invented it but he wasn't the man that made it what it is today. Bill has had a much bigger impact!

Now, what I want to know from you, since you have been around, is why Bill Gates's software is so inherently *beep* as you put it.

Kindest regards,

remco

roytheboy
roytheboy's picture
Offline
Guru
North Wales, UK
Last seen: 7 years 17 weeks ago
North Wales, UK
Timezone: GMT+1
Joined: 2004-09-18
Posts: 2233
Points: 41

51% browsing with IE ?

Oh dear oh dear oh dear! In short:

I know about your surname because I have many friends in Bergen Op Zoom, one of whom lives in Boldwerk Nord.

Bill Gates has been successful in business at the expense of others far more worthy than him. The end does not justify the means in my book, and there's nothing about his methods that gets my respect.

The reason that his software is so popular is down to shrewd dealing and marketing in the early days. After that it was down to IT consultants who knew where their bread was buttered, or should I say they knew an endless source of bread when they saw one. It is also down to a lack of decent competition, but there again BG's methods put paid to that many times over.

As for his software: where do I start? Have you tried running a Windoze webserver and a Unix webserver? ...obviously not, or you wouldn't be asking me to explain Laughing out loud

As for shaping the internet: now you're just trying to wind me up. Ha Ha - I'm not biting.

As for everything else you've written: I'm not going to respond because you are so far off the mark that it's clearly going to be a waste of time putting in writing what most switched on people know already. I don't wish you any disrespect and I appreciate that you are trying to keep this thread light and fun Smile It's good to talk but I can't see this one going anywhere at all.

Life's a b*tch and then you die!

rbolwerk
rbolwerk's picture
Offline
Enthusiast
Last seen: 13 years 40 weeks ago
Joined: 2004-11-30
Posts: 71
Points: 0

51% browsing with IE ?

You are right Roy, its not going anywhere and we have better things to do. We will probably never agree but your views are respected.

Anyway, I am glad this wasn't a bashing match ... these discussions can really wind people up.


Take care

roytheboy
roytheboy's picture
Offline
Guru
North Wales, UK
Last seen: 7 years 17 weeks ago
North Wales, UK
Timezone: GMT+1
Joined: 2004-09-18
Posts: 2233
Points: 41

51% browsing with IE ?

rbolwerk wrote:
Take care

...and you Smile

Returning the thread back on topic: [click, whirrrrrrr, click] Done Laughing out loud

Life's a b*tch and then you die!

Hugo
Hugo's picture
Offline
Moderator
London
Last seen: 5 years 46 weeks ago
London
Joined: 2004-06-06
Posts: 15668
Points: 2806

51% browsing with IE ?

Well I'm afraid that it's my turn now!
My comment was meant as a lighthearted remark, a joke if you will;
which seems to have gone completely over your head rbolwerk. Smile

As for your assertions, well I have to say that like Roy I have watched the pc industry grow from the day's of the 2086 and msdos 4.00 (what a disaster that version was) and have watched as M$ slowly put a strangle hold on the software market through what have come to be considered dubious marketing methods by many including many High Court judges around the world.

rbolwerk wrote:
Certainly the last couple of years it was IE who pulled the internet

I'm not sure what you mean by this statement, but you need to remember that the only reason IE rose to prominence was it's inclusion in the OS system and the fact that every PC came bundled with it and that many users had no idea that there were alternatives available.

rbolwerk wrote:
As a developer I greatly appreciate the complexity in a browser. I have written a browser myself. IE6 has added complexity as it has the ability to be integrated into other applications.

As a developer! then you should realise that this integration is one of the aspects that make IE such an insecure browser, full of some very severe security flaws, this is not my own personal assertion but that of many knowledgeable people in the business, and there are plenty of developers on the net who discuss these issues , you may want to read a few and get an idea of just why IE is such a problem.( even the USA federal internet security Dept has publicly recommended that people do not use IE )
The last thing I want is people using a browsers programming ability and integration with the OS to find easy exploits to attack my system thankyou very much which is one of the reasons that I heavily restrict the running of that abomination known as ActiveX
(which I believe is on the way out, even M$ seem to acknowledge it's a problem)

rbolwerk wrote:
The thing that really gets me going though that everything Bill makes is per definition rubbish, not good etc.. As far as I am concerned Bill makes fantastic software, so fantastic in fact that the whole world is using his stuff


Oh come on, it's well documented that Mr Gates is a second rate programmer (allegedly) and that M$ has never really ever completely written a piece of software from the ground up, it's been other peoples work that they have developed .You should be aware of the history of the DOS operating system which started the whole sorry affair.
You cannot make the assumption that his software is great due to the fact that "the whole world uses his stuff" this is due to the clever marketing skills that Roy mentioned , although I would say that due to the volume of M$ windows based systems in use it has been the platform most developers have concentrated on, therefore there is a wealth of software available ( unlike the redoubtable MAC, no offence to mac's intended.)

rbolwerk wrote:
Having said that I am at the same time really *beep* off with him for not updating some of the faulds that IE has.

And are you aware according to some very interesting discussions amongst top end programmers, the sort that actually consult with M$ on development, that to update a lot of the problems IE has that we all have to work around is actually entirely feasible and not a major task - go figure that one.

rbolwerk wrote:
You can not deny that over the years IE has been at the top! And because of this Bill has been a shaper of the internet more than any other person (Yes, including Tim Bernes Lee , excuse me if I misspell his name)

Rbolwerk you really can't make sweeping statements like this. it was just a some scant 6 years ago that Mr gates made a public address claiming that the "internet" was not an important area for development and that M$ would not be concentrating any of it's time on this aspect; and a few years latter he has done a complete U turn declaring the "internet" to be the most important area for development and that M$ would be concentrating it's resources and development in that area- thus demonstrating what a true visionary and innovator he really is !!
Bear in mind also that essentially Netscape set the ball rolling with browser development not M$ once again they followed stole ideas and relied on the fact that IE was tied into and bundled with the OS .
I think there was some sort of rather prominent court case about this Wink something to do with unfair practise?
Mr Gates has in no way "shaped" the internet and you do many that did the ground work for what we use a disservice,
Did he have anything to do with Packet Switching TCP/IP, HTTP, Browsers, HTML, Apache, MySql one could go on and on.

rbolwerk wrote:
You Roytheboy seem to be *beep* off at Bill Gates just because he has been seriously succesful in business.

It seems a bit silly and childish

Roy like many does not decry Mr gates just because he is successful
in business, that is to suggest some petty jealousy which is mildly insulting Smile but because in general many believe that M$ are guilty of some bad practises and badly written programmes and have attempted to restrict true development if it wasn't in their own interests.

rbolwerk wrote:
So yes, windows is as far as I am concerned a good OS

then why do so many programmers say otherwise , pointing out the inherit flaws in the way windows is constructed leading to a unstable system ?

rbolwerk wrote:

I always compare it to the English and their invention of soccer: They might have invented it but they are rubbish at it. Smile (sorry ... its how I feel)

Careful now your on very dangerous ground Oups Smile
We may well be *beep* at the game but it's a national institution, so please refrain from insulting us Smile

rbolwerk wrote:
Now, what I want to know from you, since you have been around, is why Bill Gates's software is so inherently *beep* as you put it.

what aside from the continual Buffer Overrun Exploits, bad memory management, programmes hogging, not releasing resources
programmes able to write to a central registry/hive unchecked , up till now no dll verification; the list is endless.
For a better idea of the reasons have a read of this site ( if you haven't already come across it) digest it and see if it changes any of your opinions! please give it a read.

http://www.euronet.nl/users/frankvw/index.html

I didn't intend this as a discussion for gods sake it was meant to be an amusing quip but I'll remember not to bother next time Laughing out loud

For the sake of right to reply and not to appear to abuse power
I'll leave this open but will probably lock it out whence all is done
.

Hugo.

Before you make your first post it is vital that you READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES!
----------------------------------------------------------------
Please post ALL your code - both CSS & HTML - in [code] tags
Please validate and ensure you have included a full Doctype before posting.
Why validate? Read Me

Tony
Tony's picture
Offline
Moderator
Brisbane
Last seen: 1 day 21 hours ago
Brisbane
Timezone: GMT+10
Joined: 2003-03-12
Posts: 5343
Points: 2964

51% browsing with IE ?

Interesting discussion.
Just for info the Browser Stats are collected on the home page http://www.csscreator.com only, although they could be collected elsewhere.
Many of the visitors to that page may be new to the CSS Forum and web development in general.
The figure for IE, includes all versions of windows and Mac IE, although I expect most of that to be IE6 on windows.
After we have collected stats for a while I may add a monthly browser figure to the stats page.

briski
briski's picture
Offline
Elder
London
Last seen: 8 years 23 weeks ago
London
Timezone: GMT+1
Joined: 2004-02-16
Posts: 1066
Points: 0

51% browsing with IE ?

rbolwerk wrote:
I always compare it to the English and their invention of soccer:

They might have invented it but they are rubbish at it. Smile (sorry ... its how I feel)

Ah just when I was having a bit of sympathy - then you go and call it soccer, AND rubbish my nations skill tsk tsk tsk. If you look at the Fifa ranki..... oh what's the point Wink

To add a little to the thread, I generally agree with what Roy and Hugo are saying, there are many questionable ethics and practises used by MS. However I do feel that the use of M$, Micro$oft and other such things mearly detracts from any decent arguments. It makes it too easy for people to ignore valid points as simple Bill Bashing.

There is a LOT wrong with MS products, IE was a good browser when it came out and you could claim

Quote:
IE6 has its place too in the list of greatest browsers ever
but at the moment your credibility would suffer if you maintain that it "up there with the best" of the current crop I'm affraid.

Bill has all this cash, he got to be spending it on something - it's not developing a new browser sadly - maybe just maybe he's building an army of 1000ft tall men of iron to crush all his critics... then again maybe not.

Hugo
Hugo's picture
Offline
Moderator
London
Last seen: 5 years 46 weeks ago
London
Joined: 2004-06-06
Posts: 15668
Points: 2806

51% browsing with IE ?

Your quite right Briski; at one time IE was a decent browser and overtook Netscape in terms of development, it's just a shame that very few MS products survive on their reputation and ability but rather rely on the fact that people are either too lazy or unwilling or even aware that there are alternative products ,Isn't competition meant to promote development, MS ensure market domination through stifling competition and leave us stuck with the legacy of IE6 for years to come.
Microsoft has probably had it's time ,this attempt at market domination demonstrates a very suspect attitude from the top of that corp and it hasn't gone unnoticed , there are signs that it may start to unravel for them, we even have large PC manufacturers starting to ship boxes with Linux pre-installed which goes right against MS licencing terms; as I understood it you are strictly forbidden from offering alternative OS and I think it's even quite difficult to ship a box without an OS (but I may be wrong there) even some big multi-nationals are looking at replacing their networks with Linux.
These are extremely significant events that may help to once again open true competition and wake MS up to the fact that it may actually have to compete and produce quality products that people actually want rather than use because they know no better.

You were right, shouldn't use M$ just colors the argument.
Hugo.

Before you make your first post it is vital that you READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES!
----------------------------------------------------------------
Please post ALL your code - both CSS & HTML - in [code] tags
Please validate and ensure you have included a full Doctype before posting.
Why validate? Read Me

co2
co2's picture
Offline
Leader
UK
Last seen: 12 years 32 weeks ago
UK
Joined: 2003-09-17
Posts: 721
Points: 0

51% browsing with IE ?

Regardless of what IE was and when; here and now it's a demented piece of crap that make my working life hell each and every day.

Viva Firefox! (oh, and Safari Wink )

The next sentence is true. The previous sentence is false. Discuss...

briski
briski's picture
Offline
Elder
London
Last seen: 8 years 23 weeks ago
London
Timezone: GMT+1
Joined: 2004-02-16
Posts: 1066
Points: 0

51% browsing with IE ?

That is alas the truth of the matter. Crying

I wonder if we can launch a class action suit (what ever that is) against MS for the countless hours of wasted time making perfectly good code different to work on IE, hmm probably not.

rbolwerk
rbolwerk's picture
Offline
Enthusiast
Last seen: 13 years 40 weeks ago
Joined: 2004-11-30
Posts: 71
Points: 0

51% browsing with IE ?

ok ... this begs a reply from me.

Hugo, don't lock it up just yet please, I am finishing off a project and will be able to reply tomorrow.

tnx.

remco

Hugo
Hugo's picture
Offline
Moderator
London
Last seen: 5 years 46 weeks ago
London
Joined: 2004-06-06
Posts: 15668
Points: 2806

51% browsing with IE ?

briski if you bring the action , I'll sign my name to it Smile

Remco, I shan't lock it out, on reflection there's no need, I think we all tend to behave ourselves and these discussions can be interesting if not a bit time consuming and tend to run their own course Smile
Hugo.

Before you make your first post it is vital that you READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES!
----------------------------------------------------------------
Please post ALL your code - both CSS & HTML - in [code] tags
Please validate and ensure you have included a full Doctype before posting.
Why validate? Read Me

rbolwerk
rbolwerk's picture
Offline
Enthusiast
Last seen: 13 years 40 weeks ago
Joined: 2004-11-30
Posts: 71
Points: 0

51% browsing with IE ?

Brisky,

Allow to start with expressing my admiration for the English and their football skills, I should not have said those words in my earlier post about English football, I mean it I watch the Primier L. every weekend ... Cool

Quote:
If you look at the Fifa ranki..... oh what's the point

I just did and Holland is 6 which is better than England @ 7. Maybe you didn't figure out I was Dutch yet. Laughing out loud (http://www.fifa.com/en/mens/statistics/index.html)

Anyway, back to the thread:

Quote:
I generally agree with what Roy and Hugo are saying, there are many questionable ethics and practises used by MS.

I also strongly agree, however, I want to put it in a broader perspective; Microsoft has not done business in isolation, other parties must be equally frowned upon.

For example, still in the contract with hardware firms Microsoft demands that no other operating software may be installed, only Microsoft products.

The way I see it is that these hardware boys where just like Microsoft: In the game for the money ... and as such just are much to blame for the situation we now have with Microsoft's stronghold on the market in the browser industry and other areas for that matter.

This market inbalance is only delaying real competition, it hasn't stopped it. And for all the money Microsoft has, it has no control over individual projects other companies start to deliver competing products.

Firefox is such an example, inherently a far better webbrowser than IE, and a real thread to IE.

The only thing we Firefox lovers require (YES ME TOO!), is that the Mozilla organisation has the true backbone that it requires to Microsoft and say no to the $$$$.

Making it open source has pretty much done that ...

Quote:

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
IE6 has its place too in the list of greatest browsers ever

but at the moment your credibility would suffer if you maintain that it "up there with the best" of the current crop I'm affraid.

I will maintain this until something else has surpassed IE as the most used browser in the world.

Mozilla Firefox is catching up fast: http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp

-----

Your statement is very interesting:

Quote:
maybe he's building an army of 1000ft tall men of iron to crush all his critics... then again maybe not.

I wonder too, he is either building something to go with his new Longhorn windows version or he has considered the browser as we know it completely obsolete!! and is building something better.

There are now other ways of browsing www content, consider RSS/Atom feed readers which are becoming mainstream.

Sometimes I don't even open the browser, I just read content with a RSS reader.

The point I am making is that www content is continuously changing and ways to present it too. It won't stay with a simple webpage. How about internet through your tellie? We are experimenting in Holland with this.

Is Bill allready closing deals with cable suppliers? If so then history might repeat itself because it will be an IE brother or sister you will be browsing with on tellie for the next ten years.

rbolwerk
rbolwerk's picture
Offline
Enthusiast
Last seen: 13 years 40 weeks ago
Joined: 2004-11-30
Posts: 71
Points: 0

51% browsing with IE ?

Hugo,

Brisky said:

Quote:
However I do feel that the use of M$, Micro$oft and other such things mearly detracts from any decent arguments. It makes it too easy for people to ignore valid points as simple Bill Bashing.

And this is actually exactly the point I was wanting to make in my first post but unfortunately it has become a little Bill Bashing.

That I defend his software against this simple bashing is because I really don't think that his software is as it has been described by some in this thread.

If I only consider their extremely fast (maybe even the fastest in the world) commercial database system called Fox Pro. I also consider the fact that Microsoft's products are used on such a large scale.

Even with all the security problems, other features of Microsoft's products simply outweigh this problem in the eyes of the consumer. Just have a look at the statistics page under the section os. http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp

There was nobody holding a gun to my head when I bought my XP system. I could have bought a linux system too, I didn't because I can not do the things with it what I want.

Just some comments to your reply:

Quote:
My comment was meant as a lighthearted remark, a joke if you will;
which seems to have gone completely over your head rbolwerk.

You no this is not true, I even said everything to RoyTheBoy in gest.

I wrote:"Certainly the last couple of years it was IE who pulled the internet"

Then you wrote: "I'm not sure what you mean by this statement"

With this I meant that IE has been THE browser since the last year, I refer to the statistics page.

Quote:
As a developer! then you should realise that this integration is one of the aspects that make IE such an insecure browser, full of some very severe security flaws, this is not my own personal assertion but that of many knowledgeable people in the business

As a developer I appreciate the added difficulties this integration brings and program according to this, every respectful programmer should take security seriously and so should the user, the responsibility lies with both.

You also don't leave your front door open when you leave the house. Although there have been security issues you can not deny that Microsoft is not doing anything about it, the patches are the proof.

To design a system with no flaws the first time round is impossible or are you going to tell me that you have achieved that. Wink


Quote:
that abomination known as ActiveX
(which I believe is on the way out, even M$ seem to acknowledge it's a problem)

Now I am seriously doubting your knowledge. ActiveX technology has now got a different name: COM technology and it is still based on the same underlying principles. In fact there is now .NET and its all based on the same principles.

What are you talking about when you say its on the way out!

IE is one big ActiveX. There is nothing wrong with an ActiveX. Its simply a class/function compiled as an OCX or dll, you must have seen those?

Its an interface which exposes methods which programmers use to build integrate/applications. And yes, just like everytime you integrate or build an application you have to take care of security, memory leaks etc..

from MS:

COM: Component Object Model Technologies
Microsoft COM (Component Object Model) technology in the Microsoft Windows-family of Operating Systems enables software components to communicate. COM is used by developers to create re-usable software components, link components together to build applications, and take advantage of Windows services. The family of COM technologies includes COM+, Distributed COM (DCOM) and ActiveX® Controls.

COM is used in applications such as the Microsoft Office Family of products. For example COM OLE technology allows Word documents to dynamically link to data in Excel spreadsheets and COM Automation allows users to build scripts in their applications to perform repetitive tasks or control one application from another.

Quote:
You cannot make the assumption that his software is great due to the fact that "the whole world uses his stuff"

With all due respect I do not make any assumption, I am not so arrogant to consider that all those Microsoft buyers are wrong in chosing what is for them the best! If it wasn't the best then they would't buy it would they? Or have THEY got a gun to their head?

I make no judgement, I am merely observing the stats from the market.

Quote:
unlike the redoubtable MAC

Now you make a sweeping statement. Wink JOKE!!!!

Quote:
Mr Gates has in no way "shaped" the internet and you do many that did the ground work for what we use a disservice,
Did he have anything to do with Packet Switching TCP/IP, HTTP, Browsers, HTML, Apache, MySql one could go on and on.

Oh dear ... If you care to look on http://www.w3.org, just check who is a platinum member! And this is what a member does: (I qout from w3)

"As a W3C Member, the most important measure of value in joining the Consortium can be found in the adoption of W3C specifications worldwide, and the growing dependence of global commerce and information exchange upon these specifications. W3C Members help pioneer this growth process."

You are right in terms of Packet Switching TCP/IP, HTTP. But you are wrong about browsers, what do you think IE is? You are wrong about HTML too, I refer to Microsoft's plat. mebership to the w3.

What have Apache and MySQL done more than IIS and Sequel Server 5+ respectively?

You told me to read this.

The first thing I read is that this guy HATES Microsoft, hardly objective with all that emotion.

He has got a whole history on Bill which is only from one perspective; the big bad Bill!! I was not impressed.

He then calls himself a geek, which I find strange and then on top of all he proclaims that he hasn't written a serious line of code in ten years!!!!!

No, sorry, he is not to be taken serious Wink

I have heard two main arguments here.

Firstly, MS is a dirty player and secondly, MS produces insecure products.

I argued that you can not play dirty in isolation. Blame the other buggers too!

With regard to the security, customers still prefer MS products over others, and thus I question whether this is really such a big thing for them.

Give me an alternative to the extensive productline, inluding all the development tools MS has and I will consider a switch. Until then I stick with Bill.

roytheboy
roytheboy's picture
Offline
Guru
North Wales, UK
Last seen: 7 years 17 weeks ago
North Wales, UK
Timezone: GMT+1
Joined: 2004-09-18
Posts: 2233
Points: 41

51% browsing with IE ?

rbolwerk, you REALLY need to get out more Laughing out loud Everything you write is very funny but I find it impossible to take you seriously. You seem to have no grasp of the world outside of the Micro$oft box. You have obviously never looked at applications offered by other vendors, and you seem to have a very worrying sense of what is and isn't acceptable in terms of security. You talk/write like you know a bit about your subject but then you go and ruin everything by singing the praises of Fox Pro (are you completely mad, or just misguided :? ), and suggesting that IIS is better than Apache. You also seem unable or unwilling to look at the IT history books and see the bigger picture that BG has been painting all these years. I find that a bit sad actually because I'm sure you mean well (I'm sorry if that sounds patronising but it's a genuine sentiment)!

As we say in good old blighty: wake up and smell the coffee Wink ...IMHO you're making yourself look very nieve.

Life's a b*tch and then you die!

Hugo
Hugo's picture
Offline
Moderator
London
Last seen: 5 years 46 weeks ago
London
Joined: 2004-06-06
Posts: 15668
Points: 2806

51% browsing with IE ?

Rbolwerk,
You say that you doubt my knowledge, well fair enough , maybe the assertion that ActiveX was on the way out was inaccurate but I'm afraid that your comment that there is nothing wrong with ActiveX demonstrates an equal lack of knowledge and flies in the face of a multitude of opinion and as for DCOM /RPC isn't it just one huge gapping vulnerability, why do I still see it as the predominant probe on my firewall.
The point about these controls that I read repeatedly is that they should never have been given such access across the internet MS just opened up a new world of attack methods for the idiots to exploit

You state that as a developer you appreciate the added difficulties that this integration brings and that it is the responsibility of both programmer and user in respect of security; well I'm sorry but you cannot place responsibility at the feet of the general user , part of MS prominence in the market has been due to targeting the "Home User" fostering this belief that every one should have a home pc and whilst avoiding any real explanation of the complexities of running an OS even to the extent of designing the OS to be so user friendly for this target group and it is one of the reasons for the inherit flaws seen .
You cannot expect these people with their level of expertise to grasp the finer points of security the responsibility for that lies squarely at the feet of MS who should have paid far more attention to the security aspects of their systems before releasing them in the wild.
I spend many frustrating hours trying to fix up peoples systems, installing firewalls that they are never going to understand and frankly leave them wondering what on earth is going on.

Yes MS do release patches but I wouldn't go as far as to pat them on the back for it , just look at the release of XP followed some scant six months later by a 100mb update, come on who are they kidding also what is always worrying is that the majority of the time it seems to be third parties that notify of security threats which Ms often take an inordinate amount of time to issue patches for and even then they quite often cause further problems!

rbolwerk wrote:
With all due respect I do not make any assumption, I am not so arrogant to consider that all those Microsoft buyers are wrong in chosing what is for them the best! If it wasn't the best then they would't buy it would they? Or have THEY got a gun to their head?


Rbolwerk with all due respect this is a statement of extreame naivete . my assertion was that the volume sales of MS products is in no way an indicator of their excellence and has more to do with the extremely clever marketing strategies MS employ and to which I do have to admit a sneaking admiration for (god forgive me)
and yes to some extent they have got a gun to their heads.

I thought I had better make a sweeping statement here to keep our MAC friends happy Smile

Rbolwerk I am quite aware that MS are a member of the W3C and were part of the working group for ratification of the CSS spec
and just quoting from the W3C on what membership means hardly supports the original assertion that MS shaped the internet .
If you would , kindly explain how it was that having agreed to the CSS spec and it's status as a "recommendation"as part of the working group did MS then go of and fail to implement a large proportion of that recommendation in their browser leaving us with the situation that we all know and hate as it makes our lives a nightmare at the best times, That was hardly acting in harmony and in the best interests of moving the internet and standards forward was it ?

The article I asked you to read is actually rather well written and in his introduction he states that many will consider that he just hates Bill Gates and he explains why that is not true.
He doesn't let emotion override his ratting to any great extent and
a lot of what he writes is a matter of record
I agree to some extent that clearly he is not happy with them and uses somewhat colorful expressions but this goes for a very large proportion of people
There is still a lot of interesting information in there and I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand as "Bill bashing".

rbolwerk wrote:
With regard to the security, customers still prefer MS products over others, and thus I question whether this is really such a big thing for them.

eh , I suppose you are right many don't seem to consider security important which is why so many of us suffer at the hands of unpatched systems, of those fools who care not that they are propergating viruses around the internet. Again it falls to MS to pay due regard to the systems they release

Hugo.

Before you make your first post it is vital that you READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES!
----------------------------------------------------------------
Please post ALL your code - both CSS & HTML - in [code] tags
Please validate and ensure you have included a full Doctype before posting.
Why validate? Read Me

thepineapplehead
thepineapplehead's picture
Offline
Guru
Last seen: 35 weeks 6 days ago
Joined: 2004-06-30
Posts: 9668
Points: 801

51% browsing with IE ?

Put it this way - if MS didn't suck in the first place, there'd be no need for better, open-source projects . . .

Verschwindende wrote:
  • CSS doesn't make pies

briski
briski's picture
Offline
Elder
London
Last seen: 8 years 23 weeks ago
London
Timezone: GMT+1
Joined: 2004-02-16
Posts: 1066
Points: 0

51% browsing with IE ?

rbolwerk wrote:
I just did and Holland is 6 which is better than England @ 7. Maybe you didn't figure out I was Dutch yet. Laughing out loud (http://www.fifa.com/en/mens/statistics/index.html)

I realised you're Dutchness already yes Wink

But I hardly think being 7th out of 200 odd is rubbish.
Also if 7th is "Rubbish" does that make 6th "Quite Rubbish"

Ok ok now I am just being a pedant Laughing out loud

Back to the point, just because something is well used does not mean it's the best/greatest.

Take the example of VHS vs Betamax video systems. By all accoutns Betamax was the far superior system, alas they sucked at marketing and so VHS crushed all in it's wake.

Sadly popularity is not garunteee of quality.

thepineapplehead
thepineapplehead's picture
Offline
Guru
Last seen: 35 weeks 6 days ago
Joined: 2004-06-30
Posts: 9668
Points: 801

51% browsing with IE ?

The reason Betamax failed was because they refused to sell their technology to other companies. VHS sold the technology to whoever wanted to build a VHS player - therefore flooding the market with them.

Firefox isn't as well used by 'normal' people as:

a) They don't know about it, and

b) They don't understand the benefits of it.

In A, MS has a global monopoly over all things computers. Ask someone what operating system they use - 90% will say some MS derivative product. Ask them what browser - those that know will say IE (any version).

It comes with the OS, it's there, they have no need to download more software that they already have. It's the same with openoffice - nobody uses it as they don't need it.

As for B - the only reason we use FF is because of the standards-compliancy (among other things such as customisability, tabbed browsing etc), and the security. However, 90% of websites on the net do not conform to the standards, so having a decent browser won't make any difference.

The standards really only apply to hardcore web developers like us lot - we realise how crap IE is at displaying things perfectly, but the difference is, really, unnoticeable.

(And for the record, I use OpenOffice - bloody marvellous!)

Verschwindende wrote:
  • CSS doesn't make pies

thepineapplehead
thepineapplehead's picture
Offline
Guru
Last seen: 35 weeks 6 days ago
Joined: 2004-06-30
Posts: 9668
Points: 801

51% browsing with IE ?

Sorry for the double post.

Quote:
rbolwerk, you REALLY need to get out more Laughing Everything you write is very funny but I find it impossible to take you seriously. You seem to have no grasp of the world outside of the Micro$oft box.

Agreed.

Quote:
I could have bought a linux system too, I didn't because I can not do the things with it what I want.

Such as what? Everything you can do on XP, you can (probably) do better on Linux. (And you don't have to 'buy' Linux, most of them you can get for free)

Quote:
Although there have been security issues you can not deny that Microsoft is not doing anything about it, the patches are the proof.

It took them FOUR YEARS to release Service Pack 2, which STILL didn't fill all the security flaws.

Quote:
To design a system with no flaws the first time round is impossible or are you going to tell me that you have achieved that.

Not impossible, but expensive and time-consuming.

Quote:
I am not so arrogant to consider that all those Microsoft buyers are wrong in chosing what is for them the best! If it wasn't the best then they would't buy it would they? Or have THEY got a gun to their head?

Read my above post. They buy it because it has been drummed into their skulls that it is the best.

Take chocolate for example. Would you go into a shop and buy a generic, third party chocolate bar you've never heard of, or a Mars bar?

Verschwindende wrote:
  • CSS doesn't make pies

Hugo
Hugo's picture
Offline
Moderator
London
Last seen: 5 years 46 weeks ago
London
Joined: 2004-06-06
Posts: 15668
Points: 2806

51% browsing with IE ?

thepineapplehead wrote:

The standards really only apply to hardcore web developers like us lot - we realise how crap IE is at displaying things perfectly, but the difference is, really, unnoticeable.

"Standards" apply to everyone and everyones continued use of the internet , Standards are the attempt to create a Unified framework from within which Coding and Language could develope and move forward safely. following a set Standard should mean that harmony is brought to the web development community and the mess of the "Tag soup" era would be behind us .
It's not just about how crap IE is, but it is something that must be pushed home to all and sundry not just hardcore web developers .The only people who need not be aware or for that matter care are the general end user who just want's to surf the web without hassle .

Hugo

Before you make your first post it is vital that you READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES!
----------------------------------------------------------------
Please post ALL your code - both CSS & HTML - in [code] tags
Please validate and ensure you have included a full Doctype before posting.
Why validate? Read Me

briski
briski's picture
Offline
Elder
London
Last seen: 8 years 23 weeks ago
London
Timezone: GMT+1
Joined: 2004-02-16
Posts: 1066
Points: 0

51% browsing with IE ?

thepineapplehead wrote:
The reason Betamax failed was because they refused to sell their technology to other companies. VHS sold the technology to whoever wanted to build a VHS player - therefore flooding the market with them.

The actual reason for the failure of betamax was not the point, the point was that just because something is universally used does not mean it's the best/greatest.

thepineapplehead wrote:
The standards really only apply to hardcore web developers like us lot - we realise how crap IE is at displaying things perfectly, but the difference is, really, unnoticeable.

I kind of agree and disagree here. Standards matter to everyone, it just hardcore developers that know problem x y z is probably caused by cruddybrowseritus. The problems still effect average users, they just think that it's "one of those things" because they are unaware of what's going on behind the scenes.

Look at http://piecesofrakesh.blogspot.com/2004/11/rediscovering-web.html
for an insight into a non techie view of what moving from IE to Firefox is about.

rbolwerk
rbolwerk's picture
Offline
Enthusiast
Last seen: 13 years 40 weeks ago
Joined: 2004-11-30
Posts: 71
Points: 0

51% browsing with IE ?

I agree with Adee who recently posted the following on ZDNet:

Quote:
linux is under-used and hence under-tested
the reason the flaws on the windows platform are so apparent is that literally 95% of all machines on this planet are running a windows operating system. i'm sure if linux had the same marketshare as MS, you'd have just as many crafty hackers punching holes through it. if linux was truely that superior, they would have the marketshare MS does. I'm tired of hearing about how sore losers have a superior product. linux is free, and they still dont have the market share. what is it tell you about the product, when you can't even give it away for free?
Posted by: ADee Posted on: 12/14/04

People (or better: customers of IT products) want more than a secure system. The prove in the pie is in Microsoft's 95% market share!!! They want ease of use, they want plug and play, they want support from an organisation which also has a brick and mortar office (this is why people !BUY! linux from companies like Redhat etc.)

A product is more than a set technical specifications which might be better than a comparable product.

Take the Mars bar example from above or the Betamax example.

Betamax might have been a better system (technically) but that was clearly not so important to the consumer.

I remember that I had to make a choice for Betamax or VHS, I was stupid and bought Betamax because it was a better system. It was a stupid move because several years later I was unable to buy even empty tapes.

And during this whole battle between Betamax and VHS, it was Hollywood who was laughing all the way to the bank because they understood very well that it is not the format which is important but the content!! Without the movies there would have been no Betamax and no VHS, and that is the crux of it all.

Microsoft understands this very well while the Linux camp just completly misses the point.

Linux still has the image to the wider public that it is difficult to operate, that they can not do what they want etc..

Whether this is true or not true at this moment in time is not important. What is important is that that perception is there (among the MAJORITY of the buying public) and in the end: Perception is Reality.

So although it is free, Linux at this moment has not got the correct attributes to be able to conquer the world like Microsoft Windows has done.

You can blame it on anti competitive marketing tactics but that just does not cut it with me.

Microsoft understand very well that the majority of the users today (as opposed to 10-15 years ago) are people who only come into contact with a computer at work or use it at home to make a xmas card with MSPowerpoint. They are not the ones who can use the command line statements the power user can use. In fact they can not be bothered.

These users are exactly the same as the the ones who find it difficult to read the instructions of a VHS recorder.

So, although I must also conlude that Linux is the better operating system in terms of bugs and security, I must also conclude that it is the worst operating system for the masses who now rule in terms of usage and who therefore are arguably the most productive group when using computers. Even my grandma can plug in her digital camera and play with it using her windows XP system.

I suggest that the Linux fans under us get together and seriously start to debate how to let the Linux operating system have a better image so that the masses will start to use it too.

Its a better way of spending energy compared to moaning and groaning about Bill. I believe it was Briski who allready in the one of the first posts said that this was detracting from the real issues.

You can hate Bill and his products as much as you like but the fact of the matter is that he does understand what a product is about.

For Linux to become mainstream it must do something about its image as being very difficult to use etc.. and stop trying to argue that it is better technically and safer because nobody cares about that! Make something that people want to use!!

Apple is a great example of this, I hear MAC users swear by their computer, never do they want to switch to Bill.

But they also don't want to switch to Linux becuase in their eyes it just ain't good enough.

Apple is the proof that an open source operating system can compete against Microsoft, afterall, its operating system is based on an opensource project.

I repeat:

Give me an alternative to the extensive productline, inluding all the development tools MS has and I will consider a switch. Until then I stick with Bill!!

----

RoytheBoy: I really don't mind that you make a laughing stock out of me but do mind that you fail to read what I have actually said and then use that as a joke or twist my words.

So here some corrections (for the record):

I never suggested that IIS and SQL server where better than Apache and MySQL respectively. Please read what I have actually said.

I have maintained that I appreciate the security issues with Microsoft products. In no way do I suggest that I do not care about it or hold beliefs that it is not important. I have put the responsibillity at both the developer AND user, maybe this misled you in thinking otherwise but this is really another debate.

rbolwerk
rbolwerk's picture
Offline
Enthusiast
Last seen: 13 years 40 weeks ago
Joined: 2004-11-30
Posts: 71
Points: 0

51% browsing with IE ?

Hugo,

You wrote:

Quote:
"Standards" apply to everyone and everyones continued use of the internet

Surely you don't mean that the normal user must be concerned with these standards, they just want to use the the net.

Maybe you mean that every developer must adhere to these standards?

roytheboy
roytheboy's picture
Offline
Guru
North Wales, UK
Last seen: 7 years 17 weeks ago
North Wales, UK
Timezone: GMT+1
Joined: 2004-09-18
Posts: 2233
Points: 41

51% browsing with IE ?

rbolwerk - I'm bowing out of the discussion now. AFAIC you made yourself a laughing stock when you suggested that Fox Pro was a good/fast database, let alone the rest of your opinions about what makes Windows so good and/or popular.

The key things that you seem to be missing here are that just because something is popular does not make it good; that 99% of people do not make informed choices about hardware and software - they just follow the crowd, the salesman (who knows of nothing other than Windows), or their MS-trained IT advisor; and that regardless of whether or not the punters understand standards and security etc, their future ability to maximise the net depends upon these things. MS has a moral and commercial duty to get all these things right, but they fly in the face of their responsibilities with an air of staggering arrogance and ineptitude.

Personally I couldn't give a dam what OS you or anyone else uses as long as Apple stays in business and as long as the good people that keep unix-based server systems in good shape keep on doing the fantastic job that they do. I have the good sense and trade-knowledge to know where my bread is buttered - the rest of the world can do as they please and more fool them (and you) for running about with their heads in the sand (sorry about all these English expressions BTW).

Thanks for your entertaining posts but as someone who understands and works with Windows, OSX and Unix-based systems, I will never have anything other than contempt for BG and MS. Sorry!

Life's a b*tch and then you die!

rbolwerk
rbolwerk's picture
Offline
Enthusiast
Last seen: 13 years 40 weeks ago
Joined: 2004-11-30
Posts: 71
Points: 0

51% browsing with IE ?

roytheBoy, this is the second time you bowed out Wink. The first we agreed that we would never agree. Nothing has changed since that as far as I am concerned and thus we will still not agree. For us to agree was hardly the point ...

The point of this thread was to question why when everybody swears by Firefox that 51% of the time its still IE which is used on this forum.

I say that with your feelings of contempt for everything Microsoft you could have never given a good objective contribution to this thread. That's why we allready agreed to disagree.

There is no need to apologize for your english expressions. You only assume here that I might not understand them, you are wrong to do so. Just as you are wrong to assume that 99% of people (I qoute you):

"do not make informed choices about hardware and software - they just follow the crowd, the salesman (who knows of nothing other than Windows), or their MS-trained IT advisor"

How silly, childish and arrogant.

This argument is too simplistic and does in no way start to answer the question why IE achieves such high popularity.

I think YOU should wake up and smell the coffee! When you call everybody else fools but not yourself, a little bell must start to ring in your brain to ensure that you at least question/test what you are claiming.

"I have the good sense and trade-knowledge" - What are you saying now RoyTheBoy? Are you saying again that you know best and the rest hasn't got a clue?!

You are making a bashing session out of this not me, I will not make any further comments about this.

I am just as much a pro like you, the difference is that I am trying to stay objective and thus I will arive at better conclusions than you.

roytheboy
roytheboy's picture
Offline
Guru
North Wales, UK
Last seen: 7 years 17 weeks ago
North Wales, UK
Timezone: GMT+1
Joined: 2004-09-18
Posts: 2233
Points: 41

51% browsing with IE ?

Okay then; just one more post as you are so good at baiting Laughing out loud ...

Maybe I should have said this: "In my opinion and experience of working in a professional capacity with computers since the seventies, and since then with people that use personal computers in all walks of life, 99% of PC users do not make informed choices..." etc. etc.

This isn't a scientifically based measurement, just a cursory figure based on my experience. I know hundreds of PC users but only a handful of them understand their computers beyond the most basic level. Of those, all have switched to either Mac or Linux over the last year or two. Prior to running my own webservers, I used a local 'computer company' to host my websites. They were all MS certified and ran nothing but Windows machines. They scripted in ASP and ran MS databases. I tried to make them see the error of their ways but gave up trying. Six months ago the MD sent me a lovely email telling me how they had seen the light and switched to OS technologies and how they then realised what fools they had been. Then another previously PC-based IT support company started recommending and installing Linux machines instead of Windows boxes. They too are pleased they did and so are their clients. They now offer both systems to their customers but recommend Linux every time.

These are professional people I am talking about, that know far more than me about their specialisms. The trend of moving away from MS has only just started but it's heading in the right direction AFAIC, and for the right reasons. Security is high on the list by the way.

And yes, as I own and work with or on all three systems, I do feel that I am well-placed to know 'best compared to the rest', although I'm not sure I'd put it quite that arrogantly. Perhaps 'better than most' would be more appropriate. For in my experience, the 'most' know bugger-all about their computers Wink

For the third time, that all folks Laughing out loud

Life's a b*tch and then you die!

rbolwerk
rbolwerk's picture
Offline
Enthusiast
Last seen: 13 years 40 weeks ago
Joined: 2004-11-30
Posts: 71
Points: 0

51% browsing with IE ?

You are a gentleman ... I am glad I had a chance to argue with you. Smile

Hugo
Hugo's picture
Offline
Moderator
London
Last seen: 5 years 46 weeks ago
London
Joined: 2004-06-06
Posts: 15668
Points: 2806

51% browsing with IE ?

And on that note......

I call an end to this thread as it has clearly run it's course and may be in danger of spilling over into acrimony.

If any Moderator wishes to reopen the thread for any reason please feel free to do so.

If any one else has a burning desire to add something or feels that it should be left running please PM me.

Duly locked.

Hugo.

Before you make your first post it is vital that you READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES!
----------------------------------------------------------------
Please post ALL your code - both CSS & HTML - in [code] tags
Please validate and ensure you have included a full Doctype before posting.
Why validate? Read Me