17 replies [Last post]
wendy
wendy's picture
Offline
Enthusiast
Boston, MA
Last seen: 13 years 11 weeks ago
Boston, MA
Timezone: GMT-5
Joined: 2005-01-31
Posts: 174
Points: 0

I'm stumped! Not sure how to describe this, but here goes:

Site pages are built using .wrap to provide horizontal limits, and are template-based. I detached a page from template to do some unrelated testing, and checked in Browsershots, everything was jolly and the world was right (i.e., looked fine in Win/IE7 and Win/IE6, and fine on my FF2/Mac). I carried on with the template pages (how could there be a difference, since the detached page was generated by the template?) and for a double-check ran a page through Browsershots - ack!

The pages are held together horizontally by .wrap[s]. On the detached page, .wrap encloses everything it should and the IE6 world is right. On the attached pages, .wrap just sits in a sulk, not enclosing its friends, and as a result, the navigation has a little right-hand burp - but only in IE6 (IE7 displays fine, as does Firefox). The really weird thing is the two little letters ["me"] that display below the right end of the navbar - I cannot figure out where they have come from! :? (Extraterrestrial message?)

I have been trying to figure this out for 5 hours now - not whining, I love this stuff, but am coming up empty. Anybody game for a go at it? It's a very interesting and curious problem, and I would really like to know what's going on (not to mention correct it!)

Page detached from template, a good child:
http://www.horseink.com/chdrsg/slide-test.html
Page (one of 'em) acting up, still attached to template:
http://www.horseink.com/chdrsg/contact.html
Closeup of what is happening, complete with secret message from extraterrestrials, from Browsershot screenshot:
http://www.horseink.com/chdrsg/browsershots-contact.html.gif
Pertinent CSS:
http://www.horseink.com/chdrsg/css/content.css
http://www.horseink.com/chdrsg/css/interface.css

Thanks! Smile

Chris..S
Chris..S's picture
Offline
Moderator
Last seen: 10 years 18 weeks ago
Timezone: GMT+1
Joined: 2005-02-22
Posts: 6078
Points: 173

I guessed you fixed it. IE6

I guessed you fixed it. IE6 works fine for me. BTW - excellent post asking for assistance, explanation, links and image showing the issue. I'm only sorry I wasn't able to help Smile

Hugo
Hugo's picture
Offline
Moderator
London
Last seen: 8 years 3 weeks ago
London
Joined: 2004-06-06
Posts: 15668
Points: 2806

The problem is still there

The problem is still there Chris.

Under the last main nav item there is a 'me' snippet of text, this is the IE duplicate character bug the letters 'me' are the last two letters of the first nav link by the look of things.

http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer/dup-characters.html

Firstly try removing all the comments in and around the UL nav markup as this can be a trigger for this bug.

I know that a critique has not been requested, but I must just mention the main header graphic, why is it so large? At that size most of the page content is well below the fold and requires me to have to scroll to read it and at the moment I have my browser set quite large. I would have made that graphic probably a third that size which would have been more than sufficient.

Before you make your first post it is vital that you READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES!
----------------------------------------------------------------
Please post ALL your code - both CSS & HTML - in [code] tags
Please validate and ensure you have included a full Doctype before posting.
Why validate? Read Me

Chris..S
Chris..S's picture
Offline
Moderator
Last seen: 10 years 18 weeks ago
Timezone: GMT+1
Joined: 2005-02-22
Posts: 6078
Points: 173

Wierd. It doesn't show up

Wierd. It doesn't show up for me on the home page. I do see it now that I look at other pages and if I go back to the home page it'll be there. But it'll disappear if I refresh the home page. Ahhh, the vagaries of IE.

wendy
wendy's picture
Offline
Enthusiast
Boston, MA
Last seen: 13 years 11 weeks ago
Boston, MA
Timezone: GMT-5
Joined: 2005-01-31
Posts: 174
Points: 0

Chris, I haven't touched

Chris,

I haven't touched it since I posted it...(and if I had, I probably would have burned it at the stake!)

Thanks very much for your kind comments regarding my post. I might not have been so successful in presenting the issue if I hadn't been so punchy :rolleyes:

Wendy

gary.turner
gary.turner's picture
Offline
Moderator
Dallas
Last seen: 1 year 47 weeks ago
Dallas
Timezone: GMT-6
Joined: 2004-06-25
Posts: 9776
Points: 3858

See IE6 duplicate characters

See IE6 duplicate characters bug. That's the source of your "me".

cheers,

gary

If your web page is as clever as you can make it, it's probably too clever for you to debug or maintain.

Hugo
Hugo's picture
Offline
Moderator
London
Last seen: 8 years 3 weeks ago
London
Joined: 2004-06-06
Posts: 15668
Points: 2806

Hugo

Hugo wrote:

http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer/dup-characters.html

Firstly try removing all the comments in and around the UL nav markup as this can be a trigger for this bug.

Thought I had covered that link Gary.

Guess I must be using invisible characters in my posts; :mad:

Before you make your first post it is vital that you READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES!
----------------------------------------------------------------
Please post ALL your code - both CSS & HTML - in [code] tags
Please validate and ensure you have included a full Doctype before posting.
Why validate? Read Me

gary.turner
gary.turner's picture
Offline
Moderator
Dallas
Last seen: 1 year 47 weeks ago
Dallas
Timezone: GMT-6
Joined: 2004-06-25
Posts: 9776
Points: 3858

Sorry, Hugo. I was scanning

Sorry, Hugo. I was scanning the thread and 1) the dupe character bug stood out, and 2) I missed your fix. :oops:

cheers,

gary

If your web page is as clever as you can make it, it's probably too clever for you to debug or maintain.

wendy
wendy's picture
Offline
Enthusiast
Boston, MA
Last seen: 13 years 11 weeks ago
Boston, MA
Timezone: GMT-5
Joined: 2005-01-31
Posts: 174
Points: 0

Thanks,Hugo. I've been

Thanks,Hugo. I've been working on this since I read your post, but my host is down at the moment (first time in years, really) so can't check on Browsershots. I had in idea it might be this, but decided not because I didn't see any "me"s in the nav - of course, hoME was staring me in the face. :blushing:

There was a commented-out

  • within the lis, which I removed. Bug still showed. Found another comment just above (but not immediately above) nav, which I removed; bug still showed. I started adding display:inline; to the elements prior, one by one, and on one screenshot-generation, found the problem fixed in XP - but NOT in IE6-Windows2000. As soon as my host is back in business, I'll give things another check. This is a persistent little bug!
  • Re: header img, client's wishes (and they want to add another). They also wanted a splash page, but hopefully that's nixed. You're absolutely right that img should be smaller; I'll see what I can sneak by.

    I'm always happy to have critiques; that's how we improve. I appreciate your help and your suggestions.
    Wendy

    wendy
    wendy's picture
    Offline
    Enthusiast
    Boston, MA
    Last seen: 13 years 11 weeks ago
    Boston, MA
    Timezone: GMT-5
    Joined: 2005-01-31
    Posts: 174
    Points: 0

    Gary, Thanks for your

    Gary,

    Thanks for your reply; I must readily admit to completely missing the origin of those two annoying letters.

    P.S. "That's the source of your 'me' " sounds almost existential - who woulda thunk this possible of html! Wink

    Wendy

    Hugo
    Hugo's picture
    Offline
    Moderator
    London
    Last seen: 8 years 3 weeks ago
    London
    Joined: 2004-06-06
    Posts: 15668
    Points: 2806

    In reality this can be a

    In reality this can be a much nastier bug than is given credit for, I've had run ins with it where the only solution was to break the flow between two elements, I think in one instance I had to insert a HR for IE6 only and visually neutered using zero height, line height, and font or something along those lines

    Before you make your first post it is vital that you READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES!
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Please post ALL your code - both CSS & HTML - in [code] tags
    Please validate and ensure you have included a full Doctype before posting.
    Why validate? Read Me

    gary.turner
    gary.turner's picture
    Offline
    Moderator
    Dallas
    Last seen: 1 year 47 weeks ago
    Dallas
    Timezone: GMT-6
    Joined: 2004-06-25
    Posts: 9776
    Points: 3858

    Did you try removing

    Did you try removing comments after the lis and ul and wasn't there a

    ?

    cheers,

    gary

    If your web page is as clever as you can make it, it's probably too clever for you to debug or maintain.

    wendy
    wendy's picture
    Offline
    Enthusiast
    Boston, MA
    Last seen: 13 years 11 weeks ago
    Boston, MA
    Timezone: GMT-5
    Joined: 2005-01-31
    Posts: 174
    Points: 0

    Gary, I will check this

    Gary,

    I will check this when I can get through to Browsershots (now having some robots.txt trouble...eeesh)

    Dreamweaver template has created comments prior to and following this

      , and at this time I need the
        to be editable. Looks like moving comments away from
          means making the whole upper .wrap div editable. Not a big deal, I guess, but would prefer not.

    I'm liking more and more the idea that we just ignore IE6 - but can't, and also want to beat this problem. Onward... :thumbsup:

    wendy
    wendy's picture
    Offline
    Enthusiast
    Boston, MA
    Last seen: 13 years 11 weeks ago
    Boston, MA
    Timezone: GMT-5
    Joined: 2005-01-31
    Posts: 174
    Points: 0

    Victory! Tested many times,

    Victory! Tested many times, with many different edits, and identified "#header ul li" as the trouble-causer: it MUST include "display:inline;" in order to prevent the aliens from texting - I mean, to prevent the Duplicate Characters Bug (note: in my case, this bug only cropped up in IE6/Windows2000**[see below, unfortunately]).

    I removed all comments within the

      for all the testing. Just now put a plain comment back in for the heck of it (no evidence of bug), then commented out a link (which shouldn't be any different than a plain comment, but this is where I started from), and still nothing. One last time, removed "display:inline;" from #header ul li, and, to paraphrase Johnny, "It's baaaaack....". Added back in and it's gone. (Gary, comments following
        don't seem to affect it.)

    So: in my case, with my html/css combo, (on this day, with this weather, etc etc), the Duplicate Characters Bug is evidenced in IE6/Windows2000** if the #header ul li (which is the last float in a floated container) DOES NOT contain "display:inline;". I'm here to share the "display:inline;" love.

    Hope this helps someone :rolleyes:

    [** typical...the last test I do, it shows up in IE6/Windows XP...What an unreliable bug!! But adding back in the old "display:inline;" still guns this outlaw down.]

    And thanks a million for all the help given to me!
    Wendy

    gary.turner
    gary.turner's picture
    Offline
    Moderator
    Dallas
    Last seen: 1 year 47 weeks ago
    Dallas
    Timezone: GMT-6
    Joined: 2004-06-25
    Posts: 9776
    Points: 3858

    That's keeping the ul as

    That's keeping the ul as float? Same fix as for the doubled margin bug works for duplicate characters? How interesting.

    edit: Went back and reread the PIE article; found this:

    PIE wrote:

    Update! September 7, 2006 Brett Merkey points out that the Doubled Float Margin Bug Fix may be used to stop this duplicate characters bug! Who knew? As always, that fix is used on floats and does not affect floats, according to the W3C. However, just like the doubling bug it fixes this duplicating bug when it is applied to the float that comes before the triggering comments. Thanks Brett!

    The fix itself is simple, just add display: inline; to the float that preceeds [sic] the comments, or you can just globally apply it to all floats. So far there have been no apparent side effects when doing this. If all floats are given the fix at all times, several known IE bugs will be prevented while no other known effects occur. If you do this and ever notice any odd side-effects, please contact us, okay?

    cheers,

    gary

    If your web page is as clever as you can make it, it's probably too clever for you to debug or maintain.

    wendy
    wendy's picture
    Offline
    Enthusiast
    Boston, MA
    Last seen: 13 years 11 weeks ago
    Boston, MA
    Timezone: GMT-5
    Joined: 2005-01-31
    Posts: 174
    Points: 0

    I should have mentioned that

    I should have mentioned that I learned about using it in the same article. Seems like it solves a lot of things, while doing no harm to (most) others.

    Interestingly, some of the other things in that article did not work for me at all, so I guess it depends on particulars (or weather Wink ).

    Wendy

    Hugo
    Hugo's picture
    Offline
    Moderator
    London
    Last seen: 8 years 3 weeks ago
    London
    Joined: 2004-06-06
    Posts: 15668
    Points: 2806

    It depends on the temp that

    It depends on the temp that your CPU is running at and the amount of allocated resources being used by processes at that moment the element is parsed and constructed in the DOM then and only then if your stack heaps are not overflowing but there is a memory address violation will the bug show.

    I'm not surprised that the other fixes did not work, it's what I was trying to say earlier; it's a strange bug, many fixes are put about as though they are a/the definitive fix, but in my experience the full workings and causes of this little devil are not really understood. How is it that I have recently described a ul nav almost identical to yours all floated elements, no really obvious difference that I can tell yet I have not encountered the bug.

    Before you make your first post it is vital that you READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES!
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Please post ALL your code - both CSS & HTML - in [code] tags
    Please validate and ensure you have included a full Doctype before posting.
    Why validate? Read Me

    wendy
    wendy's picture
    Offline
    Enthusiast
    Boston, MA
    Last seen: 13 years 11 weeks ago
    Boston, MA
    Timezone: GMT-5
    Joined: 2005-01-31
    Posts: 174
    Points: 0

    ... I'm constantly

    :rolleyes: ... I'm constantly suffering from a memory address violation. (thanks for the good laugh!)

    I'll remember from now on (if memory is working, that is) that I now have personal experience that it is, indeed, a strange bug!! I just hope I never meet it again.