EE#1 - hosting and domain advice

What's EE stand for (I'm guessing you don't mean ExpressionEngine)?

I use Jumba, an Australian company with Oz-based servers. Their plans are a better price than Lunarpages although you don't get unlimited space/bandwidth (but then you probably don't need it).

Hi Tyssen

And you'd be right!

It's one of the sites I'll be revamping for Maggie - 2008 version which I'm revamping and updating for the 2009 conference. I don't want to use those 3 letters at CSS Creator because the main site in the US has HUGE traffic (500,000+ on newsletter twice a week and 10,000 dnloads of the free manual per week) and I never want csscr threads to show up in any searches for it.

Thanks for the recommendation - I've just had a looksee and the problem here Maggie knows GoDaddy hosting is half the price and the question will be "why pay more?"

On the plus side Jumba handles both .com and .au registrations so it would definitely be ideal to have hosting and registration all in one place. If you've been using them for a while, do they send renewal emails for domains and hosting?

I also don't see anything about transfers on Jumba.

Interested in anything else you (or anyone) can tell me about pitfalls.

ETA: Just had a thought - when I create a new hosting account wherever...would it be better to give it a name different to any of the sites? In other words don't create a hosting account with the same name as one of her sites. Thanks

I use JaguarPC for clienta because I am stuck in a contract with 1&1.
Once 1&1 ends I will be moving over to JaguarPC as well.

They have a shared server plan with unlimited disk space and really good support along with an actual cPanel.

Thanks Deuce...I'm off to have a look at that too

I have just spoken again with Maggie and we don't have to do anything about registrations at the moment but the hosting will run out Wednesday.

ETA: Oops....just found this

Because you'll get better support from a local-based host (and their support has always been pretty good for me) and Australian-based servers are better for Australian visitors.

I actually register most of my domains elsewhere but yes they do.

I think it's free. You just have to put in a transfer request with Jumba.

I don't think it matters as no changes will take effect until you change the DNS server settings with the domain registrar.

Thank you for all this Tyssen

Unfortunately the decision is now made and Lunarpages it is. I don't know that this would have swayed her to pay $21 instead of $7.50 in any case.

I don't think it matters as no changes will take effect until you change the DNS server settings with the domain registrar.

I've always had a bit of a problem with my Freehostia account because I named it after the first site I set up, so three different owners now sit under nasmsite. That's why I thought it would be better if for instance the account had been set up as smee.com - transfering the idea would mean the account becomes client.com with site1.com, site2.com sitting underneath. It would keep them all together more tidily (why doesn't that look right?)

Once again thanks for the feedback...I'm about to start!

Eh? Aren't they more expensive? :? As far as I can tell, Lunarpages cheapest business hosting package is $US12.95/month compared to $AUD9.95/month for Jumba.

Hmmm...it's a bit confusing but I was reading through their pre-sales forum and one of the mods said "most people start with the Basic Plan" while it's subtitled Personal Plan, I don't know that it is in the way other hosting is set up.

Biz Plan at LP seems to assume you will have a shopping cart which EE doesn't and never will.

Well personal to me says not for business, but if your client's happy with being able to fudge the rules with a US host that probably doesn't care that much for the sake of saving $AUD1.20/month then that's up to them. Me, personally, I don't reckon a $14 annual saving is worth more than the benefit you'd get from having servers based in your own country.

Oh dear I don't think either one of us want to "fudge the rules" as you put it. LP has 150,000 clients and has been running since 1998 - if they were fudging surely they would have been discovered by now?

I'll go off line and ring Maggie now though and run it past her.

ETA: I asked the question in their forum last night and have just checked the answer:

A business site doesn't have to be one that sells products via ecommerce. Any site involved in promoting the services of a business or even non-profit organisation wouldn't be considered 'personal' in Australia, e.g. this is the disclaimer on Jumba's site about personal plans:

I've just re-checked Jumba - the problem with Maggie is that she has more websites than you can shake a stick at. She informed me yesterday that she has two more (1-pagers) to go up. I know there is at least 1 more on top of that.

That's why I originally said that the Jumba Biz-3 is what she would have to go with - so we're looking at a minimum of $A21 for the first year? or the first month? and then $A29.95 per month after that - that's a big difference to $ $A7.50 per month.

Bummer! Can you please tell me where you found that?

That means the answer they gave me is TOTALLY misleading! I shall go back to the forum with it.

This is a ridiculous situation and I object to putting both me and the client under unnecessary pressure - so I have just rung Maggie and told her the best option is to renew with iPower until we sort out the best host for her to move to.

Fortunately she agreed quickly because she has a client arriving in 10 mins.

Three one page websites wouldn't require their biz-3 package - you can get 4 add-on domains with biz-1 and they're not going to use much space.

As for Lunarpages forum being misleading, they're not really. Their rules might not stipulate anything about not using personal plans for business sites; it's not a legal requirement. Different hosting companies will have different rules relating to it.

I really, really appreciate your input and help on this Tyssen.

So that you have a clear picture let me back up a bit...

Site 1 - 11 pages, 1 alias
Site 2 - 8 pages, 1 alias (this is the one I'm revamping)
Site 3 - 1 page, possibly numerous aliases
Site 4 - 1 page, possibly numerous aliases
Site 5 - unknown at this stage

Potentially Sites 6 and 7 totally unknown at this stage, She has just had a major US source of referrals decide not to host other sites' workshops and is in a state of flux as to how to cover it.

If I'm going to recommend a move to her, then I feel a responsibility to make sure it really will cope with at least 8 maybe 10 sites in the next two years at an acceptable price, since she is happy to pay for 2 years hosting up front.

With renewing iPower hosting for the moment, it gives us space to make an informed decision. I want that decision to be the right one for us both.

I forgot to say that there is still some urgency because Sites 3 and 4 (1 page each) are ready to go and have no hosting.

Okay...I have just had someone with over 3600 posts reply to my request for clarification on the LP forum. I said the client was a business selling training and counselling services.

Firstly he said

Then when I said I'd heard of business sites under personal plans being shut down, he followed up with-

I feel a lot more comfortable with this now so I think I'll go ahead unless I've really got some naysayers

Well the crux of my point wasn't really about whether it's illegal (or unethical), but that given all things being equal (or as close as), I'd go for an Australian host over a US one.

:? this talk of what you can or can not run on a plan is a bit odd, hosting companies - of repute? - do not impose - generally - any restrictions on what may be run off a plan, the term 'personal' is not the best and I can see how it's obviously confusing. Most plans are labelled along the lines of basic/intermediate/pro or bronze/silver/gold the difference in the plans is the amount of resources one gets, bog standard basic level is usually suitable for personal sites with low level traffic but they wouldn't restrict you in what you ran - as long as it were legal. If you were running a fairly busy site then you would probably want as much bandwidth as possible so would opt for a more expensive plan.

As Tyssen mentioned go for an Australian host if the client and their market is in Australia. Also check to make sure the server is actually in Australia as many may have their servers in the US.

Too late! She cried...the deed is done.

Actually Tony, I'm not sure where the client's market is at the moment She's only been living here permanently for the last 2 years and was back and forth from/to the US for a couple of years before that. While she does run workshops here, most of the people who came found her via a US website. A lot of her business is also conducted over the phone and she has international clients.

Thanks Hugo also because what you've said now tallies with the info I've got from LP.

Is there a way of setting up new hosting for a live site without the site going down for (up to) 3 days while the new servers propagate? :?

ETA: this is for another site belonging to the EE client.

I use dnsmadeeasy.com for external DNS and it takes at most 3-4 hours for a domain to go live.

Not sure I follow T...the site is registered with X and hosted with Y, new host established with Z. All I understand at the moment is that I have to point X to Z's servers instead of Y.

Is there another way to do this?

You don't have to use the host's DNS. Where I host my .NET sites I don't run an external DNS (I do have one for the local intranet but it can't be used from the outside world). Instead my registrar points to dnsmadeeasy's DNS and their DNS points to my .NET server. A new domain takes about 3-4 hours to create and propagate but switching from one that's already created to another happens in what seems to be a few minutes.

*toddles off to look at dnsmadeeasy*

ETA:

Are you telling me that [url=http://www.dnsmadeeasy.com/s0306/price/compare.html]dnsmadeeasy[/ur] will provide:

* 3 zones (unique domains)
* Each zone needs 5 records. (www, mail, pop, root record, an MX record to direct email, and a HTTP Redirection record.)
* Receive 1 million queries per month (12 million per year).

for $US14.95 a year - about $22.00?

But that's hosting :? So this live site I have to move should be hosted at dnsmadeeasy instead of LP? If I point the dnsmadeeasy servers at LP then what's it doing.

You can tell can't you....I haven't the faintest idea what I'm talking about or how this works...could you spell it out a bit plz T?

I don't use their hosting. Only their DNS service.
http://www.dnsmadeeasy.com/s0306/price/dns.html

My sites are NOT hosted at dnsmadeeasy.com

I don't think it's for you if you don't understand how to create the necessary records. Just leave it at your host, the wait for propagation isn't that long.

That's what I thought you meant - I just don't understand what it does there in the middle and Wikipedia doesn't have anything. Reading up

I thought the dns propagation took so long because every set of servers to be updated has their own schedule.

I've got three weeks to get to grips with this one and the client is not going to be happy if I tell her the site will go down for up to three days

Well, you should be able to get around that with some creative host overlapping.

Just don't cancel the old host until the domain shows up on the new host. I put a comment in the markup that identifies the page is from the new host. You can also access emails via IP numbers instead of host names. So you shouldn't lose anything in the mix.

I'd love to....but how do achieve that? With what I know so far, I go to the registrar and the nameservers are pointed at the current host. If I want to point the nameservers at a new host the site goes down for three days. Or are you saying ns1 remains pointed at current host and ns2 at new host or something?

(Edited for clarity.)

Oh, Bless your little cotton socks!!!

Just so I'm clear...

A request from who? A user typing in the url?

So the dns server looks at the request (from whomever) and looks at its last request timestamp and says "oh that's 37 hours old, I'd better go and get a new picture of the site from the server" - which just happens to be pointed at the new host, right?

If both hosts are active and you use IP numbers instead of domain names then you should be able to get email from both sites.

What is the purpose of setting up the subdomain? I'm not sure I understand the extra step.

Yes, a user, at least kind of yes. Lots of things happen in the background when you make a request for a webpage by domain name. One of those is the domain name lookup. The same thing happens whenever your computer makes a request for something by domain name (e.g. all that self-updating, when it checks for emails from your email server, any automated information fetching things you have like news feeds, weather widgets, twitter widgets).

No, not quite. DNS names are the human readable side of the internet. It runs on IP addresses. Before your web browser can go get a page from www.somewhere.com it has to look up the IP address of www.somewhere.com. It does that look up on a DNS server. After the DNS server gives it the IP address, it can then go find the page/image/whatever from www.somewhere.com. Your browser then caches the domain name/ip address match, but only for a few minutes.

When the DNS server(*) receives a request for the IP address of a domain name, it looks in its cache to see if it knows the address. If it finds the domain name & ip address in the cache it supplies it. If it doesn't find the domain name it will go look for it(**). After it goes looking for the domain/ip match, it saves it in its cache. I don't know if something monitors the cache and erases items that are too old, or if when it looks for an item it checks the datestamp first to see if it too old - but these amount to the same thing from an external point of view. If the last time it retrieved the domain/ip was too long ago, it will go get it again.

Wikipedia has some pretty good explanations of what's going on. domain name system, TTL (time to live)

(*) strictly, its a DNS caching server as opposed to an authorative server.
(**) this is a pretty complex thing. First it has to find out where the authorative DNS server for your domain is. To do that it needs to find out where the authorative DNS server for your TLD is....

Important Note

All of the above assume you are not moving your domain's DNS servers. If you need to move your DNS servers, I would do that separately from the website move. That is ensure the new DNS server has the exact same information as the old one and then switch the DNS servers. Once that has bedded in you can then do the website move.

Other important thing

If your domain name control panel gives you control over the TTL of your domain name records, you could consider reducing the TTL in the run up to the move. A typical TTL is 86400 (24 hours in seconds), if you could reduce it to 15 minutes (900), and do that more than 24 hours before the move, then you would ensure everyone would be using the new site within 15 minutes of the DNS change. Once the change is done, remember to put the TTL back to something more normal (e.g. 86400).

You want to be able to test the new site before the domain name transfer, you need a name to test it under. While its easy for me to change my /etc/hosts file, most other people (e.g. clients) seem to find it tricky, and I find setting up a subdomain easier and probably more professional than relying on any other mechanism for accessing the site to test it.

Say, newsite.myclient.com as against wierdservername.somehost.com/~wierdaccountname or 123.231.123.231

Also it has the added advantage of you going through the hoops to access the domain name control panel and making changes to it. So if there are any issues, you are sorting them out early, not when you are trying to accomplish the transfer.

I see. I don't let the clients touch anything more complicated than the mouse button when it comes to things like this so I just use the weirdservername.newhost.com/~weirdaccountname. It doesn't look nice but it's temporary and no one noticed so far.

Dang, you got in and quoted before the domain name change got propagated, it should read "newsite.myclient.com".

I don't let them touch anything either.

Your TTL is too high.

That reminds me, the other guy switched all our TTLs to 6000. Probably 130 records. Bah, they've been that way for quite some time. I should probably go change them. :meh:

More brilliant info here but as I've just written in another thread I have to prioritize so I'm leaving the transfer of a live site for the moment since that isn't urgent and some other things are.

I'm back to this and now have to do it in the next few days...I did read your link to Wikipedia Chris but I think I got lost in the resolvers

ma.com.au (not real) is registered with AAA and hosted at BBB. AAA points at BBB's servers. I want to move the hosting to LPages without the site going down for more than a few hours if possible and you tell me it is

So we're going to be moving a static site a la the instructions for 1. above. I actually don't have a hosts file in /etc/ that I can see...howsomever...

Step 1
At LP I have what I call the "umbrella" domain for convenience - it isn't and never will be a 'site' - I have 3 addon sites sitting under that which ae all live. I also have an 'alias'
which points to one of those addon sites. So I set up a subdomain as transfersitename.umbrellasite.com.au and I put a copy of the files in there and test that they still work.

I'll do that and come back. Should I start a new thread about now for moving a live site?

I'm not starting another thread just yet because for once I might not require it
(famous last words of course)

To recap:

1. Subdomain set up AT the new host.
2. Done
3. Done (except I transferred an mp3 file and I can't find it on the site to test - will have to ask).
4. n/a
5. This would seem to be the case!
6. Oooooh - I chickened here 'cos this isn't going to work out right - people will have to type sillyname.domain.com to get to the newly hosted site. I think I've set it up wrong. However if I had just set up a new addon and transferred all the files there, then there would be two sites with the same name....umm....thinking....but until I switch the DNS at the registrar the new site will just chat happily to itself? More or less locally (to itself)?

The site uses mailto: which opens a new local email form for me. It popped up and I sent Maggie a message to answer if she got it (and yes Gary - to also tell me if she didn't )What, if anything, do I have to set on the new host.

ETA: What happened to T and why isn't he verified anymore?

Not sure that they isn't work going on at cros purposes here?

the sub domain was simply ease of testing out the newly created directories on new host; once all or both new and old host are working then where the parked domain name resolves to is immaterial, as it will go to one or other of them and they are identical sites, it's a cross over phase.

Not sure how this umbrellas domain you refer to along with it's alias directories work, you'd need perhaps to explain that in more detail to see how it fits - or not- with some of the guidance offered in the previous threads.

Hopefully Chris or Gary can jump in again on this one.

As for T well not sure he was ever verified, but certain that he was certified, been certified for ages

But that's just it - they won't. At least I don't think they will.

Following the instructions, I set up a sub-domain on the new host (LP). It has to be accessed by typing site4.topdomain.com.au, while the existing live site on the other host is called site4.com.au. The names are different by virtue of setting it up as a subdomain.

The "umbrella" site is actually the account name at LP - I'll call it topdomain. This is not a 'site' in it's own right in that it has no files of it's own sitting under topdomain. No index, no css and never will have.

However I have moved/setup 3 working sites as addon domains and they sit directly under topdomain (which is why I call it an umbrella). They are accessed by site1.com, site2.com.au, and site3.com.au.

I also have one alias (or what I call a 'parked' site) in that it is site2.com which points and resolves to site2.com.au.

To my mind this new site which I have set up on LP as a subdomain, should really be an addon like sites 1, 2 and 3. So that it too can be accessed by it's proper name site4.com.au, which is what it is on the other host. It will resolve to the LP servers during the test and crossover phase then when I'm happy it's okay (it seems to be in it's current state), I can change the TTL and the DNS at the registrar. Yes?

I'm thinking I actually have to create the addon and move all the files there instead of having them in a subdomain.

Does that help?

Well with no confirmation or contradictions then, I'll do that.

I apologise but I'm still struggling to get my head around the term 'addon' it strikes me as a control panel invention to some degree, and I'm having difficulty translating it to something I understand.

I would guess that the sub domains approach you is not what you require in this instance and creating that Addon is the correct step.

tbh to understand this personally I would need to be able to see the setup in full i.e the details where the domain names are parked/held and the server setups

No need to apologise Hugo, I appreciate that I'm using a host you're not familiar with and the real problem is that I'm not really familiar with anything else but Freehostia, even though I've had to dabble in PlanetDomain for Deb and iPower to get Maggie's sites over.

I think in effect the 'addon' is a subdomain at LP - it just doesn't have to be accessed by subname.topdomain.com and can have any name you like. Can't hurt to try anyway I guess.

I think I forgot an important bit of information which will make sense to you...these 'addon' domains are set up under the public_html directory in the topdomain (accont name).

The public_html is the Doc root and is where the server is pointed to serve web pages from, technically anything above that level is inaccessible from a public aspect and is essentially your user account root.

So you can point any number of tld domains example.com to the same server IP and the server will resolve the domain name reaching it to your account and then further to specific directories acting as root level sites.

Can anyone confirm whether I'm right in thinking this is simply a vhost capability yet on a shared hosting account.