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What...take out the colour

What...take out the colour yellow and really write ul ul {background:;}

I have to tell you Hugo I'm ready to ditch this ruddy thing.

ETA:
I wrote what you did because I've learned not to be inventive with your code Smile However if you're referring to #nav ul ul {background;:} I did that too and nothing changed. I put the colour yellow in because that's the whole point.

ETA-2: msavers

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no no look at the markup

no no look at the markup have you been slapping IDs everywhere.

#nav is the top level ul so #nav ul ul {} is a ul that is two levels below, you want #nav ul {}

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Yes it appears I have been

Yes it appears I have been "slapping IDs everywhere" Smile - born of frustration sometime yesterday - but in fact had validated and removed them (but not reloaded) before you mentioned it.

"you want #nav ul {}" - I'm sure I tried giving it a different color back on page 1 - nevermind, it's back in. Still no go.

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et Voila!!! (CSS in

et Voila!!!

(CSS in the head, my new stuff indented)

So what did the odds get to?
Who won the bet?
What do I get for a prize Smile

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So does the principle of

So does the principle of descendent selectors make sense, is that the styling you were after and do you feel comfortable with styling elements such as nested ul and their child elements on this basis?

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Hello Hugo, you just beat

Hello Hugo, you just beat me. Now that the monster headache is gone I thought I'd better come back and explain.

I knew I had taken perfectly good code - which I could see worked - and managed to screw it up by trying to put it in a liquid 780px container. Then as you picked up half way through, I wasn't sure I liked the drop down text centred and so tried to left align it and things went further pear shaped and I was just so confused in the end with all the changes.

So I decided that I should load in a clean copy and work through it trying to apply what you've been trying to get through my thick noggin Smile

It was the #nav li ul that had me foxed for days. I could put a background on it but it only applied to the padding (that was the blue stripe down the left of the drop down).

I knew '#nav a' coloured everything no matter what and today the missing bit finally gelled, so it was a short hop to #nav ul a

Thank you once again Hugo for your infinite patience and knowledge - it's not easy trying to fix my problems, or teach me, when I keep moving the goal posts Smile

I think I was always reasonably happy with nesting. What completely threw me was the #nav ul - not realizing that was 2 uls. What's #nav li li then? See again I thought they were the drop downs, but they simply wouldn't take a separate colour.

I think my new problem is 'a' - we shall see - I'm thinking about whether to make the bottom nav with an inline drop down, or is that too confusing and I really should just settle for the 'top' button?

So what do you think of the colours? Are they okay? The cream just didn't seem to show up but I have to admit I didn't really try the sidebar colour.

I'm still not sure whether I should left-align the text - What do you think?

Thank you Hugo! {mwah}
(and Tyssen for a lesson you never planned on giving me! Wink Laughing out loud)

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Leave the text centering

Leave the text centering unless you can maybe left align but pad away from the left to leave space for a nice bullet of some sort as you hover each link.

What I would do is to add some weight to the overall look of the link bar, the way you have set tings it would need to ne something like padding:.5em 0; on the #nav a {} ruleset, however this where restting values becomes necessary as #nav a {} means ALL anchors that have a ancestor named #nav so it would pad the nested anchors as well, not necessarily desired so you would have to do #nav ul li a {padding:0;} or some similar combination.

Not sure about the footer links is that the reference to further dropdowns? if so no don't have further dropdowns, but do look at those links are some of them perhaps not doubling up or even main links that would be better up top?

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Alright, let's leave the

Alright, let's leave the text centering and footer till the top #nav is perfect.

#nav a {padding:0.5em 0;) and #nav ul li a {padding:0;} - this worked well except...

..IE6 drop downs go missing when I load to server (ok locally). They were there then they disappeared :?

css in head - my changes indented.
Out of time today, we went to daylight saving 4 weeks early.

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Are the missing dropdowns a

Are the missing dropdowns a direct effect of adding the padding? have you adjusted back to see if the dropdowns reappear in IE?

Why am I not seeing the header graphic in FF?

Just wondering whether that nav bar wouldn't look better if it were same width as the central graphic above it?

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The header graphic there but

The header graphic there but sometimes takes a while to come in.

I thought I'd tried removing the padding - thing is the drop downs are half over the nav bar in my local IE ("high")- I'll try it in a minute. I haven't got the Editor open 'cos I was trying to come to grips with editing stuff from a voice-activated recorder.

You've pre-empted a couple of things actually Smile the nav breaks on 1 increase ergo I need more space. The Home button could be taken off and I could have a little house icon at the top of the sidebar and also make the header clickable and also have one at the bottom with the 'top' button.

Taking a button out should make it easier to make the nav a better size without being so constrained by the words. You mean shrink it to match the tan centre bit?

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Padding out and reloaded -

Padding out and reloaded - do you see the DDs?

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No the dropdowns aren't

No the dropdowns aren't there (this was simply an exercise in basic debugging to establish that padding wasn't the problem) so problem must lie elsewhere.

You could perhaps reduce the spacing between the links ?

Yes I meant the #nav to be same width as the tan centre bit.

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What spacing There isn't

What spacing :? There isn't any and if I reduce the size of the links I'll have real trouble fitting any readable text in the DDs. Which I've now decided I do want to line up with the top links.

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Actually does this help - I

Actually does this help - I remembered seeing the bit about "otherwise they appear over the top" which is what is happening on the local ie render. However the top:1.3em; doesn't appear in his final version which I'm using but I might have triggered it somehow.

Tyssen wrote:

The #nav li:hover ul { top: 1.3em; left: 0 } is required to move the dropdown menus below the parent list item (otherwise they appear over the top). Likewise, left: 0 is needed rather than left: auto because IE gets the positioning of the dropdowns wrong.

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The drop down is placed

The drop down is placed position absolute, it's parent i.e the li element must be positioned relative this is so that the offset values of the dropdown which default to top:0; left:0; take that starting point as the parent li not higher up i.e body. top:0; would mean the dropdown masked over the li so we would set a value to move that position down to just below the li i.e by an amount equaling the li height

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Well it isn't that then, I

Well it isn't that then, I haven't changed any of that as you can see and the only thing I played with earlier today in the css was some font sizes/colours.

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Whoah...I was playing with

Whoah...I was playing with line-height as well. But that wouldn't do it surely?

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erm shouldn't do, might

erm shouldn't do, might affect how it works but shouldn't necessarily knock it out completely

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You have

You have display:inline-block on header this is knocking out the graphic as inline-block doesn't take height, IE6 ignores it as it only accepts inline-block on inline elemets, anchors, if it's needed to trigger hasLAyout in IE then leave it in but straight after do #header {display:block} to reset display

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Odd I've got the graphic

Odd Wink I've got the graphic in both FF (did force refresh) and just opened IE6 and it's okay too (also did Ctl-F5 after the initial load).

Height sets HasLayout doesn't it? I'll change it to block anyway. Reloaded.

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inline-block is a trigger

inline-block is a trigger for hasLayout, height also, IE will be fine with both it won't actually work with inline-block in the strict sense unless on an inline element, FF3 on other hand will see the header as inline and not grant it height, FF2 though didn't work with inline-block, so if you're viewing with FF2 then maybe things look ok.

Unless something else is occurring but to be honest FF3 is starting to do my head in in little subtle ways things appear to have changed.

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Yes I do use FF2 - the fox

Yes I do use FF2 - the fox gave me numerous opportunities to upgrade but it also told me it might disable my plugins! Shock Since they're all web dev tools I wasn't prepared to chance it and decided to let everyone else test it for me and when they are all happy - about 2 years from now - I might upgrade Smile

I am probably a perfect example to the cognoscenti of why an average home user does not upgrade their browser :ohdear: I'm simply not one of those people who have to have the latest and greatest. Granted FF is not IE but it will still have teething problems and it's better for me if the folks who know what they are doing iron out them out.

Terrible I know, but remember when IE7 first came out? Is it safe yet? :? Laughing out loud

I'm sorry I've got waylaid with other things today and am just starting to look for the DDs again now - they're not in the fridge, I've looked there several times today.

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Well sad to report there's

Well sad to report there's still no joy Sad I'm about to pack it in for tonight so I'll try again tomorrow.

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Well it's now Wednesday and

Well it's now Wednesday and I've re-installed the original menu twice and I can't even get that to show DDs in IE6 anymore Sad

Methinks now that when I made some changes to my CSS just before the "padding" tryout on Saturday, flushed with such recent success, I may well have mucked things up. So I would appreciate it if someone would have a look for conflicts between the basic css and the "live" menu in the head of the html.

A couple of points -
This page is both elastic (zooms) and liquid (min/max with conditional comments)
My csshover.htc file is named that in the html, the local folder and the server.

The link

The bits I think might be relevant -

<span style="font-weight:bold">/* CSS */</span>
 
 
* {
	margin: 0;
	padding: 0;
}
 
 
body {
	background: #FDEEB3 url(msimages/fade_orig.jpg) repeat-x;
  font-family: "Lucida Sans Unicode", "Trebuchet MS", Arial, Sans-Serif;
	color: #000;
	   	line-height: 1.4em;
	    font-size: 1em;
	    height: 1%;
}
 
html{
font-size: 100%;
}
 
/* liquid layout for IE */
		* html #wrapouter { width: expression(document.documentElement.clientWidth < 780 ? "780px" : document.documentElement.clientWidth > 1024 ? "1024px" : "90%"); }
		* html #wrapinner { width: expression(document.documentElement.clientWidth < 780 ? "780px" : document.documentElement.clientWidth > 1024 ? "1024px" : "90%"); }
 
 
<span style="color:red"><span style="font-weight:bold">AND</span></span>
 
 
/* Mind Savers Header */
#header {
	height: 170px;
	margin: 0 auto;
	background: url(msimages/ms03orig.jpg) no-repeat 50% 0;
	display: block;
}
 
 
/* Mind Savers Wrappers */
#wrapouter {
  background: #FDEEB3;
    font-size: 0.9em;
	margin: 0 auto;
	min-width: 780px;
	max-width: 1024px;
  overflow: hidden;
}
 
#wrapinner {
  clear: left;
  background: #FDEEB3;
	margin: 0 auto;
	min-width: 780px;
	max-width: 1024px;
	border: #DA9017 solid 1px;
  overflow: hidden;
}
 
<span style="color:red"><span style="font-weight:bold">AND</span></span>
 
<style type="text/css">
 
#navholder
{
  text-align: center;
  color: #DA9017;
  width: 778px;
	margin: 8px auto;
}
 
 
#nav { 
			float: left;
			width: 778px;
			background-color: #F00; 
			text-align: center; 
			 	 margin: 0 auto;
			   list-style: none;
		}
 
 
/*
		#nav ul { 
			width: 780px;
			margin: 0 auto;
			list-style: none;
		}
*/
 
#nav ul a {
  background: #E9A844;
  color: #FFF8DD;
  text-transform: none;
  text-decoration: none;
}	
 
		#nav li { 
			float: left;
			position: relative;
			width: 127px;
		}
 
		#nav a { 
			display: block;
			width: 127px; 
			color: #FFF; 
			background-color: #F00; 
			   text-decoration: none;
		} 
 
		#nav a:hover { background-color: #900; }
 
		#nav li ul { 
			display: block;
			position: absolute; 
			width: 127px; 
			left: -999em;
		} 
 
		#nav li:hover ul { left: 0; }
		#nav li li { display: block; }
 
 
	</style>
 
	<!--[if IE]>
	<style type="text/css">
		body { behavior: url(csshover.htc) }
		#nav li:hover ul { top: 1.3em; left: 0 }
	</style>
	<![endif]-->

ETA:
Everything validates (except for the CCs) - css, html and css in the head by direct input.

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You must try removing all

You must try removing all elements on the page (comment out )till you get back to a bare bones menu then work on that in IE, comment out all properties that might cause problems, padding, overflows, positioning top etc. Ensure that the hover.htc is being found try adding a element somewhere and apply a hover background to confirm IE6 is working with the .htc file.

I'll try and take a look later (if no one else has), but it's awkward without being able to really get to grips with the page.

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Thanks Hugo I'll keep at it

Thanks Hugo I'll keep at it - you never know lightening might strike twice Smile

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Downloaded a copy of your

Downloaded a copy of your page , didn't work as expected; created a new element added hover rule to it, didn't work, pointing to possible problem with page not seeing /parsing that csshover.htc file, took next logical step, pointed to my local copy of the script, everything working as should be, conclusion: problem with .htc file? examined both files; your version has script tag without type attribute mine had language="jscript", updated your copy to include that and hover working; to verify swapped back by removing language type , sadly still worked, changed file names to force new file in order to avoid possible file caching sadly still worked, so ultimately no conclusive reason for problem.

Cant spend longer on this, suggest that you download fresh copy and see if that works? report back when done , maybe I can spend more time with it later, but slightly reluctant where problems are the result of this stupid browser version in the first place :curse:

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Thank you Hugo - it's soooo

Thank you Hugo - it's soooo incredibly frustrating, It has to be something like that because I've changed everything I can think of.

I will try downloading a fresh file. If worst comes to worst I can try loading the old copy still sitting with the duck files and see if that works. Remember it didn't work for me before Saturday because the CC name was hover not csshover.

I'll go get the fresh copy.

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Quote:Remember it didn't

Quote:

Remember it didn't work for me before Saturday because the CC name was hover not csshover.

Yes but more importantly did it work for a while after correcting that naming error?

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Yes - remember I made such a

Yes - remember I made such a song and dance about it? Tyssen's code calls it hover.htc so I just have to remember to put the css in front in the CC.

Have just installed the new copy from Peterned into my folder and then to the server - no go. Version 2.02.060206 (1.42 and :focus) <-- this is the version I dnloaded.

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I have renamed the fresh

I have renamed the fresh copy csshover2.htc and went and got my old copy of hover and named that csshover1.htc. Neither version works.

Dnloaded the old version from Peterned - Version 1.42.060206 (:hover and :active)- and named that csshover3.htc

So...
v1.42 (mine) is csshover1.htc
v2.02 (Pned) is csshover2.htc
v1.42 (Pned) is csshover3.htc

No go. Go to be something else. I'm currently persevering with v2.02.
However I have noticed with that there is about a 3px gap between the #nav and the DDs in local render IE6 (which does work).

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Well... as you can see here

Well... as you can see here I've commented out almost everything and changed as little of the original code as I could.

Drop downs are okay in FF2, nowhere to be seen in IE6

Locally rendered in IE6 does have DDs.
I have specified and reloaded the csshover2.htc to the server.
What could be the difference?

I'm about to give up which is so disappointing after getting it almost perfect on Saturday. I cannot believe I didn't copy and save it to the css for safe-keeping before playing around with it (which is what I have done before) - but, there you are, such is life as the saying goes.

Two weeks on this thing is enough I feel so unless you have another idea, I guess I'll start looking for something else Sad

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I've looked and played again

I've looked and played again with it but as it works (after allowing scripts to run in IE) locally it's difficult to pin down the issue, you might have to try grabbing the script from csscreators menu generator or the one from suckerfish and giving those a try (having applied relevant classes where required)

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I was just reading though

I was just reading though the fine detail on Peterned, hoping that I'd trip over a solution somewhere. How can I be the only one this doesn't work for? :?

I will try those - thank you so much for the time you've put in on this Hugo - who knows maybe the mystery will be solved one day. :shrug:

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Heads up guys...

I'm putting this in for others who trip over this csshover.htc problem – because I now think there is a trip wire here somewhere.

I got to pondering – why can I view the original code perfectly in both FF2 and IE6, yet when I install a duplicate it renders locally and not when I load it to the server? Why did it work on Saturday but not again?

So I Googled a bit and it would seem I'm not the only one! Shock

I found a couple of links on the first page of Google (css+"csshover.htc"+"not working") which appear to be similar to mine.

This was posted on CSScreator in June but didn't get any comments. However if you follow the link in his post you'll find he eventually stuck it in a separate folder with an ie-hack style sheet.

There is another another here from Feb 2008 which seems similar.

I found this posted as far back as 2005...unfortunately again, no response because it would appear to be identical to what's been happening to me.

Quote:

June 27th, 2005, 08:12 PM
csshover.htc file not working.
A friend of mine's doing a site for someone and I've been helping him out. I helped him make css menus, which work perfectly in Firefox of course. In IE, we tried getting the csshover.htc hack to work. It works on the local computer, but not after it's uploaded for some reason. I've looked and looked and nothing seems to be wrong. The paths are fine. Opening the htc file directly works. The only possibility I can think of is that the htc file is being served up wrong, but I don't know what to look for to diagnose that.

The page is here. The server's running Apache, version unknown.

Any ideas?

Remember when we were doing the duck menu and I complained that I could see the DDs at work but not at home? I wonder if that was another example.

I did try to put it in externally to an ie.css and stuck it and the hover file in a new directory but I've probably got the calls wrong now.

I put this in the html file -

<link href="msavers.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css">
 
 
<!--[if lt IE 7]>
<link href="msavers_ie.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" />
<![endif]-->
 
<style type="text/css">
 
 
* { margin: 0; padding: 0; }
...etcetera etcetera

and I put this in a special css file for IE -

@charset "utf-8";
/* Peterned's csshover.htc for lt IE7 */
 
body {behavior: url(css/csshover2.htc); }
#nav li:hover ul { top: 1.3em; left: 0 }

But I did wonder if this is why it worked for you Hugo?

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Servers need to be set to

Servers need to be set to deliver the file with the correct mime type for the file otherwise IE can have problems, it did work at one point though so suggests servers not to blame.

I think that your path call looks possibly wrong but that's easy to confirm, and the file must called relative to the stylesheet now.

One minor point (unlikely affecting issue) CC conditionals should be called last after other styles as they generally serve to overwrite other styles, if not they themselves may get overwritten.

Other concerns are IE daft attempt at security which causes scripts to be blocked until allowed to run, not sure if there is an issue here between local and remote servers.

If possibility of conditionals causing a problem, then for moment to test that remove them - yes granted now moved to external call.

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Quote:I think that your path

Quote:

I think that your path call looks possibly wrong but that's easy to confirm, and the file must called relative to the stylesheet now.

Yes it was. Thanks for that but it still doesn't work so today hopefully I'll get a chance to try installing suckerfish - I think it's probably the only drop down menu that doesn't use hover.htc or reams of javascript, so it seems like a safe bet. Smile I'll start a new thread with any problems I run into.

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