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What is the best, most compatible method of doing image rollovers for navigation with CSS?

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Use background images on the

Use background images on the anchor tag.

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The above if you just want

The above if you just want the background images changing. If you need to have the text in your image (say, crazy fonts nobody else has), you'll want Gilder-Levin image replacement.

Scroll to the bottom:
http://www.mezzoblue.com/tests/revised-image-replacement/

As seen here and here (design on the second by Kyle).

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I don't see any xhtml markup

I don't see any xhtml markup examples? is the common method using a

    to do it?

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Menus are considered lists

Menus are considered lists of links, so yesh, generally your menus should be as so:

You don't need a wrapping div around the nav either UNLESS you need a 100% wide background while the ul itself is a smaller width. Remember that a ul is a block just like a div is a block, so you can do the same things with a ul as with a div. But you see lots of people wrapping menus in divs.

If you looked at the links I posted, the code is there for you to see. Go to View, View Page Source (or whatever it says in your browser), and there's the HTML and usually the link to the CSS.

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Yea I checked out the link

Yea I checked out the link you posted to that practice site, the CSS looks a bit complex. I looked on the mezzoblue site but I don't see that method on there for the navigation, unless I am overlooking it.

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It is a bit complex. The

It is a bit complex. The Mezzoblue site is only talking about image replacement in general (which is not always the same thing as a rollover-- what osgood mentioned also counts as a rollover, just a simple one).

text is the basis of any image replacement, whether it's in a menu or not.

The element is whatever element you SHOULD be using, following semantic HTML, and it holds the same text it would (and this text is there for those surfing without images on or teh googlies and teh blinds). The image, stored as a background of the child (which doesn't HAVE to be a span, I've used anchors for clickable-to-home-page logos), covers the element and its text completely, so you don't see it if you can load and see images. Because I stick the span at the end of the text instead of the beginning, I have to set its position with left: 0 and top: 0. I forget why I do that, actually comes from someone else who started that.

If you don't need text in an image (due to funky non-standard fonts), don't use Gilder-Levin. It's more markup.

You may want to read about Sliding doors for things like backgrounds that look like tabs (and can expand to any text width) as well as Sliding Doors and Sprites.
Here's article 2 cause it has a link to article 1 in it http://alistapart.com/articles/slidingdoors2/
here's sprites n doors: http://www.fiftyfoureleven.com/weblog/web-development/css/doors-meet-sprites

Have fun.

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So I'm trying to get this

So I'm trying to get this setup and I've hit a bit of a roadblock, I can't figure out why my navigation is falling down over the top of the image:

http://www.miketorosian.com/sbda/index2.php

Also, on #nav a margin and padding only seem to be effecting the left and right sides and not top and bottom, why is that?

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I'm supposed to go over to

I'm supposed to go over to the neighbour's to drink beer and play a card game, so I only took a quick look : )

I think you're floating the nav right and then the containerbg thingie just isn't clearing it. Every browser may show that differently but with floats they need to either get cleared or enclosed before the next block in line stays underneath it in every browser.

Vertical margins, like heights and widths, cannot be applied to inline elements-- they'll need to be turned to blocks first. Images andd objects are the exceptions to this rule (they can have height and width).

And if the a's become blocks, then they'll need to be floated, in order to stay in a line (or display inline-block).

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hmmm, sorry, I've always had

hmmm, sorry, I've always had a hard time with CSS navigation techniques.

I added overflow:hidden; to #content_bg which seems to clear it, but now the links themselves are being pushed up above the bg image for the nav and the logo on the left is being pushed way up as well.

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instead of overflow: hidden

instead of overflow: hidden (which is used to enclose any floats containerbg would have had inside it) try clear: both or clear: right which clears floats which are Above it in the code.

I think it's kinda iffy to use a bg image for the separators cause text can move around and get enlarged and stuff. Instead, the actual divider image could be a bg image for each li or a.

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Ok, so I have #logo floated

Ok, so I have #logo floated left which dropped the logo down to where it should be, and I have #nav floated right, and then on the #content_bg I added clear: both, however, the link text is still getting pushed way up which I can't figure out.

Here's a link to the most recent version of the site:

http://www.miketorosian.com/sbda/index2.php

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Just something small to suggest

What about giving your list items (li) a right border as a seperator. This would allow the seperator line to increase as the text increased.

Just don't give the last li a border and all should be good.

Sorry if that wasn't a help, but it is something I have used in the past for pipeline seperators for my menu items.

One site I just got done with was this one. http://www.crista.org On that site the top and the footer menu's are done that way.

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Yup I've done it Mike's way

Yup I've done it Mike's way as well, sometimes a pipe works fine, just depends on what the separating image is supposed to look like, and who's floating. I often can't have the pipe on the li because it's display: inline and the anchors are floating so it just depends on what you're doing-- but can be MUCH easier than using images : )

OtherMike, I'll maybe take a look tomorrow (Monday) and see if I can't find the cause. Right now just reading it seems that the nav is trying to be at the same level as the logo which is what two floats would do. Right nav might need a clear: left to stop it from riding up alongside logo but I have to actually look at it because in that case logo shouldn't need to be floated and here you say it lets it drop down.

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No rush, I appreciate all of

No rush, I appreciate all of your help, whenever you have the free time to look it over is fine with me. Thank you!

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Okay, you've got a height

Okay, you've got a height set on the nav which is higher than the image, and the text will always try to ride as high as possible (all elements on a page are trying to be as close as possible to the top left corner, though you have text-align: right here which makes them want to go right).

I'd start with text-align: left, and lower the height of the nav, and if you have to, widen the nav a bit. Push the individual items apart with side padding, or better yet:

You could float the a's. That would make them blocks, meaning your padding you want can also go on the tops (4px) and bottoms. Set text-align: center instead of right, width: auto and enough side padding so that the words are spaced out enough.

Because the nav itself is floated, your floating a's will be enclosed, meaning the nav will not collapse but will stay tall enough to show that bg image.

I'm still rather iffy on trying to line text up against a px-sized bg image. Like otherMike said, you can either break the image into individual images (carried on your anchors if you want, but not the li's-- being display: inline with floated children means they'll collapse into nothing) or a pipe on the anchor. | <--pipe

Any time anyone has a larger font size on their browser than you expect, or like runs Ubuntu or some Linux with FF (I dunno why but Fedora and Ubuntu with FF makes widths crazy... for instance your menu wraps in ff2 and 3 on this machine while Opera shows like it would on a Windows machine). So it wouldn't ever match up on my machine and if it ever did then it wouldn't match on a Windows machine.

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Okay, you've got a height

Okay, you've got a height set on the nav which is higher than the image, and the text will always try to ride as high as possible (all elements on a page are trying to be as close as possible to the top left corner, though you have text-align: right here which makes them want to go right).

I'd start with text-align: left, and lower the height of the nav, and if you have to, widen the nav a bit. Push the individual items apart with side padding, or better yet:

You could float the a's. That would make them blocks, meaning your padding you want can also go on the tops (4px) and bottoms. Set text-align: center instead of right, width: auto and enough side padding so that the words are spaced out enough.

Because the nav itself is floated, your floating a's will be enclosed, meaning the nav will not collapse but will stay tall enough to show that bg image.

I'm still rather iffy on trying to line text up against a px-sized bg image. Like otherMike said, you can either break the image into individual images (carried on your anchors if you want, but not the li's-- being display: inline with floated children means they'll collapse into nothing) or a pipe on the anchor. | <--pipe

Any time anyone has a larger font size on their browser than you expect, or like runs Ubuntu or some Linux with FF (I dunno why but Fedora and Ubuntu with FF makes widths crazy... for instance your menu wraps in ff2 and 3 on this machine while Opera shows like it would on a Windows machine). So it wouldn't ever match up on my machine and if it ever did then it wouldn't match on a Windows machine.

You might want to get the Aardvark extention for Firefox just so you can see where these boxes are. Also, what's really really useful when you have boxes everywhere and need to know why there's space, esp when you're floating stuff, it's a good idea to give your boxes ugly primary-colour backgrounds, just to see where they are. Then you'll see things like float-containers collapsing and padding on things. When everything's in place, remove the colours. You could also use border but borders screw with the widths and heights of things (add to them) so bg colours are usually better.

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Thank you for the tip,

Thank you for the tip, tonight was the first night i had time to work on it:

http://www.miketorosian.com/sbda/index2.php

I think I am on the right track, I was hoping you could take a look at the code. I think you are right about using pipes instead of a bg image, my question is, where do I put the pipes and what is the best way to space them out evenly?

Let me know how things look, thanks for your time!

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Your ul is still really tall

Your ul is still really tall compared to the text height, but I see you've pushed it down.

If you use pipes, you'll have to stick them at the end of the anchors because your li's are display inline.

If your li's were left along and the a's not floated, you could have this (you see this on a lot of sites):

There, it's on the li and at the end (so, after the anchor) and people would maybe add some more padding to the anchor and text-align:center and the pipes look pretty ok.

In your case, You'd prolly have to stick them at the end of the a's... this makes the problem of the pipe being part of the clickable content, and any hover styles you stick on the a will happen to the pipe too:

So, that's the drawback of pipes. To not make the pipes clickable or change any hover colours etc, you could take the image you originally had, but only take the little pipe image part, and set it as a background of your floated anchors, background-position being like 100% (totally right) and 50% (vertically centered). Because your anchors are very tall and the text is low, watch out-- you may find that pipe images are higher than you want. Though it might work out ok if the background position is 100% 100% (right bottom).

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"Your ul is still really

"Your ul is still really tall compared to the text height, but I see you've pushed it down."

I'm not sure what this means, the #nav for the UL is set to height: 44px and the only other object up there is the logo on the left which also has a height of 44px, what am I missing?

Should I wrap the logo div and the ul in a container div of their own and set a height of 44px? or is that not necessary?

Originally I was trying to use the BG, but I couldn't get it all aligned the way I wanted so I figured I would just switch to pipes, but I may end up leaving out the pipes depending on how hard it is to get it all worked out.

Thanks again for all of your help.

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No, no, you don't have to

No, no, you don't have to mess with logo. By really tall, I mean that your ul is 44px high (and your anchors are also when I hover over them) but the text inside looks like only 12 px...

I should post a screenshot using aardvark to show you what I'm seeing-- it's NOT bad that your ul is very tall, it's just that when dealing with things like images, their placement in the background isn't going to have any relation to the text, but to the element itself.

If you set it to 44px so that text-enlarge keeps the text inside the ul, you could also set the height as a min-height OR in em's (if the text is also set in em's or some other scalable size).

Go ahead and try just sticking the pipe images behind the anchors, and play with the background-position. You can prolly get it exactly where you want, the trick may be with stuff like text-enlarge.

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I still want to use image

I still want to use image replacement for the links themselves, so would that eliminate text size issues?

Would it effect the pipes at all using images for the links?

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You mean you want the text

You mean you want the text to also be an image? It would remove any problems of text and pipe images not being at the same level. It brings in the problem of people not being able to increase the size of the text in the menu (unless they turn images off, which is why that never really bothers me too much).

It would not affect pipes who are images (if you're going to make the whole menu images, you'll just have your pipe/separator in the whole menu image anyway). Trying to use two images for each a (one for text and one for the pipe) I think is too much work-- Sliding Doors usually needs a lot of strange padding in weird places to accommodate all browsers, so two images for other reasons has the same problem.

Here's what you do if you want the whole menu as images (image replacement):

Keep your code menu as is, no pipes or anything just your anchors in a proper list.
Each anchor gets its own class or id, and an empty span inside.

  • blah text
  • Then open up your painting program and make your menu as you want it. Make sure the text in the image is large enough for normal people to read it-- unless they have a browser who zooms, they won't be able to enlarge that text.

    Now, you relatively position your anchors, and absolutely position their spans directly atop each other, and each anchor's span will hold a piece of your total menu image.

    It's more code and takes a lot of playing around to get everyone in place-- usually you want some visual cue that people are hovering or focusing over a link, so you'll have two versions of the menu-- normal and hover. This is a single image, and you just slide around the part you want.

    I just checked, and no, I did not post my Kyle page. This page was designed by someone else and I just (re) coded it for him, and did one of the goofy menus. http://stommepoes.nl/Kyle/practice.html
    The Kyle page won't last for real long... I'm going to do another menu replacement page, one without someone else's design, so if in the future Kyle disappears, then just look for "menus" at stommepoes.nl and I'll have it in there.

    You can find and view the menu image being used there. The pink part and the white part are all one image. No images, the visitor still gets normal anchor text (which you can style to also merge well into the page's desgin).

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    Finally got back around to

    Finally got back around to working on this, I used the Kyle website as my basis, having some issues though:

    http://www.miketorosian.com/sbda/index2.php

    1) I can't seem to get the rollover effect to work.
    2) I don't know why my menu is aligned at the top like that
    3) Is this the right way to make the menu image:

    Thanks!

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    1. The rollovers get tricky.

    1. The rollovers get tricky. What I always do is start everyone at 0, 0 (or, in your case, 0 -16px) and then change the one coord until I see which direction it's moving towards. I usually get the normal and hover states on one menu item, then move on to the next one (looks like you're doing that cause I only see the about code).

    The coords always work backwards than I expect. So always start at your default (so you can see SOME text or some part of the image) and just move the thing a few pixels, not many. That way when it goes offscreen, you can see it before it's so far gone that you don't know where it is anymore, and you can change the direction.

    That's trial-and-error positioning but it's the way I do it.

    Re Kyle page:

    	#nav .h:focus span, #nav .h:hover span, #nav .h:active span {
      	  background-position: 0 -1px;
    	}

    The -1px was because I didn't make the image careful enough-- likely my intention was 0 0 instead, but that made a jiggle upon :hover so that's why it's a bit goofy like that.

    2. The menu is just margin: 0 auto so being a direct child of #wrapper it's doing what blocks do-- not only do they try to fill their parents' widths (unless you set one) and force everyone else into a new line (not in this case since the title is floated left), they also try to be as close to the top left corner as possible. (if you give #wrapper a red border you'll see the menu trying to hug it)

    You can still float the whole nav to the right, have the content part with the image clearing both, and then to get it "down" you may need some top margin on the ul. You don't want top padding on the #wrapper since that'd also push your left title down.

    If you don't want to float it, increase its left margin to push away from the left title. Watch out-- IE will really push from the floated title while smarter browsers will push from the edge of #wrapper. If the nav is floated though then all the browsers should act the same.

    3. Looks good.

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    I'm still having a hard time

    I'm still having a hard time with this, I can't get the rollover effect to work, I don't know where I'm going wrong. I floated it right and it only moved it about an inch to the right, in IE7 I can see lines under the links, maybe some type of text-decoration? really frustrating.

    I hope CSS3 has a better way of doing this when it finally gets implemented, this seems like so much more trouble/work trying to do it like this.

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    Heh it can seem that way.

    Heh it can seem that way. If you want, I can take a look and play with it at lunch and see what all's happening.

    If I know what's going on, I can tell you, and you won't have to bash your head into the table : )

    My first thought is the whole menu being maybe wider than you think, and so its right edge might be at the right side but not the text part. But that's just outta my butt without looking, so, I'll post back later.

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    Thank you, I appreciate it.

    Thank you, I appreciate it.

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    Okay, I got

    Okay, I got this:
    http://stommepoes.nl/serbianbaseball.html

    Yesh, I mangled your HTML a little and did an image replacement on your logo lawlz forgive me... (turn images off)

    Anyway, I initially struggled with the menu, and really had to start over (initially I had pieces of your CSS and was trying to change it).

    Anyway, the menu is floated right, keeping its width like you have, and pushed down with a top margin. I only figured out how much margin to use by setting a bg colour on #wrapper, and then changing the numbers. I started with 50px just because. That was too much.

    When I no longer saw red under the logo, then I knew I was good. That ended up at 28px.

    When your image replacement is complete the menu won't look so far from the right-- the text is smaller than the menu so it looks like the menu's not all the way to the right but it is, actually. Disable the commenting on the yellow bg colour of #nav.

    I shortened the class names of the nav items cause I'm lazy and it's easier to type a single letter : )

    #nav {
      width: 436px;
      height: 16px;
      float: right;
      margin-top: 28px; /*I got to this number via trial and error..*/
      overflow: hidden;
     /* background-color: #ff0; for testing*/
    }
     
    #nav li {
      display: inline;
    }
     
    #nav a {
      float: left;
      height: 16px;
      text-align: center;
      color: #333;
      font-size: .9em;
      position: relative;
    }
     
    	#nav a span {
    	  position: absolute;
    	  height: 16px;
    	  top: 0;
    	  left: 0;
    	  background: url(menu.jpg) no-repeat;  
    	}
     
    /*IE trigger*/
    #nav a:hover, #nav a:active {
      visibility: visible;
    }
    /*begin Sprites n Doors*/
    	#nav .a, #nav .a span {
    	  width: 103px;
    	  background-position: 0 -16px;
    	} 
    		#nav .a:focus span, #nav .a:hover span, #nav .a:active span {
    		  background-position: 0 0; 
    		}
    	#nav .h, #nav .h span {
    	  width: 115px;
    	  background-position: -103px -16px;
    	}
    		#nav .h:focus span, #nav .h:hover span, #nav .h:active span {
    	  	  background-position: -103px 0;
    		}

    So far, looks good on the first two. Prolly the image should be sharpened up a bit. Notice the difference between the first | and the second. I didn't really notice that until I was measuring it with GIMP's ruler for the widths.

    Initially I couldn't even get the bg image to show at all and I dunno why.

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    Last seen: 4 years 19 weeks ago
    Florida
    Timezone: GMT-4
    Joined: 2008-08-15
    Posts: 2637
    Points: 1556

    "I like to move it, move it"

    "I like to move it, move it" Everybody sing along with me!!

    mikes02
    mikes02's picture
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    Enthusiast
    fresno, ca
    Last seen: 9 years 23 weeks ago
    fresno, ca
    Timezone: GMT-7
    Joined: 2007-09-17
    Posts: 106
    Points: 4

    Thank you as always, I think

    Thank you as always, I think I am finally getting to understand this. Still, I hope they make this easier in the future Wink

    Thanks for all your time and help, I really appreciate it!