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cma6
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I have a page which uses tables for layout http://www.vintagetextile.com/1920s_to_1930s.htm

The checkerboard pattern is achieved with this markup:

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">
<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<title>1920s to 1930s high-style Vintage Clothing at Vintage Textile</title>
<meta name="description" content="1920s to 1930s vintage clothing for the discriminating collector at VintageTextile.com">
<meta name="keywords" content="vintage clothing,">
<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="style_sheets/categoriesnew.css">
</head>
<body>
<h1 id="top">1920s-1930s Vintage Clothing <span id="at">at</span></h1>
<div id="logo"><img src="images/Graphics/vintage_clothing3.gif" height="74" width="296" alt="antique clothing at vintagetextile.com"></div>
<div id="cat-top"><a href="early.htm">Early</a>
: <a href="victorian.htm">Victorian</a> :
<a href="edwardian.htm">Edwardian</a> :
<a href="1920s_to_1930s.htm" class="herelink">1920s to 1930s</a>
: <a href="1940s_to_designer.htm">1940s to Designer</a> : <a href="shawlstext.htm">Shawls/Textiles</a> :
<a href="jewelry.htm">Jewelry</a> :
<a href="gallery.htm">Gallery</a> :
<a href="treasure_hunt.htm">Treasure Hunt</a> :
<a href="articles.htm">Articles</a>
: <a href="order.htm">To Order</a> :
<a href="mailto:[email protected]">Email</a> : <a href="index.html">Home</a></div>
<div align="center" id="bronze"></div>
<h2 id="click">Click on images for more details</h2>
<table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" id="itemtable" summary="1920s vintage clothing">
<col id="col1"><col id="col2"><col id="col3">
<tr class="row1"><td><a href="new_page_63.htm"><img src="images/Thumbnails/2176thumb2.jpg" alt="Gallenga stenciled bag" width="209" height="325"></a></td>
<td></td>
<td class="details">
<p> <b>#2176$1,200 <span class="reserved">Reserved</span> </b></p>
<p><strong>Gallenga</strong> stenciled velvet bag, c.1920. It has shades of bronze/gold stenciling
on black silk velvet and is lined with beige satin. Gallenga often used up to nine tones of gold and
silver pigment to achieve the desired ombré shading. This is an exemplar of the mysterious,
antique, Gothic quality of Gallenga's designs. NEW LISTING </p></td></tr>
<tr class="row2"><td></td>
<td><a href="new_page_7.htm"><img src="images/Thumbnails/6419thumb2.jpg" alt="rhinestone flapper cap" width="205" height="325"></a></td>
<td class="details">
<p> <b>#6419$750</b></p>
<p>Juliette-style rhinestone flapper cap, late 1920s. A diagonal mesh pattern of bronze
wire radiates out from a center diamond of prong-set rhinestones. At each intersection of the
mesh is a prong-set rhinestone. The contrast of glittering rhinestones with burnished old metal
conveys a feeling of old wealth seasoned over the generations. NEW LISTING </p></td></tr>
etc.

and with this stylesheet

body{width:89%;margin:0% 5.5%;padding:0;border:0;color:#000;background-color:#fff;font:medium Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica,sans-serif;}
#top{padding:.2em .3em .2em 1em;margin-bottom:0.5em;color:#fff;background-color:#000;font:bold 1.4em "Times New Roman",Times,serif;height:1.4em;}
img{border:none;}
td img{border:none;display:block;}
.bi{font-weight:bold;}
#itemtable td.details{padding:0 1.25em;font:1em/1.25 Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica,sans-serif;vertical-align:middle;}
#cat-top a.herelink:link,#cat-bottom a.herelink:link,#cat-top a.herelink:visited,#cat-bottom a.herelink:visited{color:#000;background-color:#F5EBD6;}
.lgbi{font-size:large;font-style:italic;font-weight:bold;}
.reserved{color:Red;font-weight:bold;}
#itemtable .row1{background-color:#e5e5e5;color:#000;vertical-align:top;height:325px;}
#itemtable .row2{background-color:#fff;color:#000;vertical-align:top;height:325px;}
#at{font-style:italic;font-weight:bold;}
#bronze{width:100%;margin-top:.5em;background:#fc6;height:1em;}
#bronze-bottom{width:100%;margin-top:1.3em;margin-bottom:.5em;background:#fc6;height:1em;}
#cat-bottom{padding-top:0.2em;margin-top:.3em;padding-bottom:1em;font:400 1em/1.2 Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica,sans-serif;text-align:center;}
#cat-top{padding-top:0.2em;margin-top:1.4em;font:400 1em/1.2 Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica,sans-serif;text-align:center;}
#click{padding-left:2em;color:#000;background-color:#fff;font:bold 1.16em Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica,sans-serif;position:relative;top:0.2em;}
#itemtable{width:100%;border:0;table-layout:fixed;}
#itemtable #col1,#itemtable #col2{width:209px;}
#itemtable a img{width:209px;height:325px;}
#logo{position:relative;left:50%;}
a:link{color:#000;background-color:#fff;text-decoration:none;}
a:visited{color:#8B0000;background-color:#fff;text-decoration:none;}
a:hover{color:red;background-color:#fff;text-decoration:none;}
a.bd:link{color:#00f;background-color:#fff;text-decoration:none;}
a.bd:visited{color:#8B0000;background-color:#fff;text-decoration:none;}
a.bd:hover{color:red;background-color:#fff;text-decoration:none;}

Here is an idea I saw online to implement the design with divs instead of a table. I can't quite get the selectors to match up with the code.

All the jpegs are 209 px wide. In the odd rows, use this style to position the jpeg in the first "column": width 418px; float:left; margin-right:-418px;clear:left;

The third "column" text would be styled: clear:none;float:left;margin-left:418px;display:inline;

In the even rows, use this style to position the jpeg in the second "column": margin-left:209px;

Assuming this is the right idea, how would I match up the selectors and the classes in the markup?--http://forum.newsgator.com/Topic30316-21-1.aspx

Deuce
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divs do not replace

divs do not replace tables.
tables should not be used for layout, divs should be used.
tables should be used for tabular data.

learn to use the <code> tag, that's what it's there for.

Write valid markup
http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vintagetextile.com%2F1920s_to_1930s.htm

Write semantic markup.

You have tons of          
why not just use padding or margin?

These are things that that we have discussed before and even made nice stickies for.
Please follow our rules if you want us to help you.

Once you get these things done, ditch the tables, write the code semantically, and then come back ask your question, and we will gladly get you on your way in the right direction with the right help.

all » http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/all

Google isn't a bunch of guys reading and grading web sites, it's more like a bunch of monkeys sniffing food and putting the good bananas at the top. -Triumph

cma6
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I know that tables are not

I know that tables are not best used for layout. That's why I asked how to do it. You didn't give any useful response.

Anyone can say, "write the code without tables," but the question is how to do it. If you don't have a constructive suggestion, don't show your ignorance by wasting my time.

Deuce
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So did you only read my

So did you only read my first sentence and decide that flaming me was a better way of going then actually following my advice?

So instead of trying to do it yourself and maybe read a tutorial you come here expecting us to do it for you

Stop wasting OUR time with YOUR ignorance.

all » http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/all

Google isn't a bunch of guys reading and grading web sites, it's more like a bunch of monkeys sniffing food and putting the good bananas at the top. -Triumph

thepineapplehead
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Please don't call respected

Please don't call respected contributing members of our community ignorant, attitudes like that will earn you loss of posting and visiting privileges.

Have a read of

http://csscreator.com/divitis

as well.

Verschwindende wrote:
  • CSS doesn't make pies

Deuce
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thepineapplehead

thepineapplehead wrote:
<snip> respected contributing members of our community <snip>

Woah, wha? :jawdrop:

"respected" :?

I don't think you guys voted on that, I think you're making stuff up... but I likes :thumbsup:

all » http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/all

Google isn't a bunch of guys reading and grading web sites, it's more like a bunch of monkeys sniffing food and putting the good bananas at the top. -Triumph

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"respected contributing

"respected contributing members of our community" - Am I :? Laughing out loud Laughing out loud

Have YOU said Hello yet?
The CSSCreator Hello Thread

lokiloks
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Praying for World Wide Web Peace

Deuce & Pinhead:

You're both jerks.

Oh yea, I forgot, I'm a jerk too Wink

Actually there's a good many jerks here, Tyssen's gotten under my skin a few times. Heck Hugo can come off kinda harsh and somehow even burlster made someone mad. I showed some of my posts to a friend and he strongly encouraged me to be a little less curt with my tone. Then again, I'm more obnoxious than the rest of you. Maybe we could have a contest!

Anyway, I've found that despite my best efforts to be "nice" my tone still comes off as arrogant or snide or something that people don't like, but now they only scowl and actually read my suggestions instead of mouthing off with some smart remark like "Anyone can say that. Jerk"

Praying for World Wide Web Peace
LokiLoks

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Hats off

lokiloks wrote:
even burlster made someone mad.

Hehehe... Can't remember who. I think it was Chris..S when I interupted him mid convo with someone else for 'interfering when I didn't know what I was talking about' or something like that.

It's all fun and games, and whilst we can sometimes be a little intimidating to new people just looking for a bit of help who have never heard of 'validating' before, nonetheless we do so with good cause. Plus, I have noticed people tend to be excessively friendly for the remainder of the thread if the user requesting help then goes away and follows our requests (or should I say 'demands').

Truth is though, I do feel sorry for some of them sometimes. I know I shouldn't, but this was my first forum and when I signed up I had no concept of 'stickies' Tongue . However, 'Cruel to be kind' works well here and regular contributors to this forum do an excellent job of setting a high standard of web design!

So yeah, whilst the frustrations occassionaly show, just as they would have done if Mozart was forced to teach Grade 1 piano, I am proud to be a member of this forum and appreciate the help I've been given...

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thepineapplehead
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Some of you can be a little

Some of you can be a little bit too hard sometimes, remember you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar Wink

Verschwindende wrote:
  • CSS doesn't make pies

lokiloks
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Some of YOU?!?

Some of YOU?!?

C'mon TPH, you've been hard on ppl before, certainly if there was a contest on who was the meanest you'd be at the end of the pack. Consider the following: (and I didn't go through many posts)

thepineapplehead wrote:
Don't bother. Send plain-text email, your users will thank you for it

That's not very nice, but it gets worse!
thepineapplehead wrote:
Why on Earth would you want to do a thing like that?

Oh my my my!
But this is downright condescending:
thepineapplehead wrote:
You wouldn't take your steering wheel to a mechanic and say the steering wheel works fine but your car won't start, would you?

I must say that in each case I concur 100% Wink

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<rant> Maybe my

<rant>

Maybe my expectations for humans are too high?
I honestly didn't think it too much to as for a user to take 3 seconds and use some common sense and read the rules.
Do people honestly think that their problem is one of a kind? Do they not realize that we have hundreds of pages of the exact same question?
So you don't know what to search for, that's fine, then read our rules.
If you go to any of the forums and you move your mouse to the "new Thread" button you will pass titles to articles that are named things like "Read This Before You Post" and "Do You have a Dctype" or something.
I know they are there, i've seen em.

Do people think they are better then us that they don't need to follow the rules?
Okay, so you make the mistake of not using the <code> tags, it's not going to kill anyone who is trying to help you, it's not my kryptonite. But don't get an attitude because you have had your mistake pointed out to you.

Too many of us here (many more people then myself, just look at post count) have spent far too many hours in this forum trying to help people.

BUT GUESS THE F**K WHAT? YOU HAVE TO EARN THAT HELP!!!

How do you earn this help? You follow our simple f**king rules. Rules that are written out, plain and simple, explaining how to ask for help.

All we ask is that you do some research before you come here and expect us to do your homework. Have a question ABOUT your homework? No problem! Show us what you've learned, and then explain what you have issues with.

I enjoy helping people out here, and I love learning new things everytime I open this forum. But if any walks in here thinking they are OWED an answer to their question, then you are dead f**king wrong.

</rant>

all » http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/all

Google isn't a bunch of guys reading and grading web sites, it's more like a bunch of monkeys sniffing food and putting the good bananas at the top. -Triumph

lokiloks
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Holy Cow!

Wow Deuce!

I'm not sure how best to reply...

Wow.

Um, :shrug:

You make a compelling point, I'm tempted to return to my natural tone. That, "do unto others" thing is keeping me more civil. I understand the spare the rod spoil the child thing is there, too.

Keep in mind that for a new poster it may be more appropriate to say "no, bad poster!" instead of whacking them on the nose with a newspaper. If they continue to do it over an dover, then a whack may do em good.

LokiLoks

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comment tone

I have been in customer service in retail AND have done technical support for a database software company and I understand that people can appear to be idiots sometimes. BELIEVE me, I know. As a graduate student teaching biology undergrads at A&M, it was shocking for me to see the lack of writing and study skills most students had.

HOWEVER

I have learned that it still works better (and is more empowering) to give people a respectable, quick (not curt), response, just as wolfcry911 did for me. Wolfcry didn't waste much of his time explaining in detail what an idiot I had been or what I should have done differently. He quickly left me a respectful note telling me what was necessary to get a response from the list. I think you can get your message across that newbies need to do something different without being disrespectful to them. It will save you valuable time as well. Anyway, I wanted to thank Wolfcry for his true leadership and for giving me the benefit of the doubt.

Holly

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hfortenberry wrote:

hfortenberry wrote:
respectable, quick (not curt), response,

I don't believe I've ever been disrespectful until I was disrespected.
I give quick answers, it's not my fault people perceive them to be "curt" because they ARE quick and brutally to the point.

all » http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/all

Google isn't a bunch of guys reading and grading web sites, it's more like a bunch of monkeys sniffing food and putting the good bananas at the top. -Triumph

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Top Rumps

hfortenberry makes a good argument!

But then I like the way this forum works. I like that a new user is effectively entering a lottery when they enter!

Are they going to get "There are no standards for unvalidated code so you have no basis for complaint". Perhaps they are going to Car/Garage analogy? Ironically if I reply, I'm always very polite but the quality of advise/help they'd get from one of the other regulars would be considerably better.

It's a game of Top Trumps isn't it. You know, the cards with statistics for categories under a character and you win them if your property is higher?

Come to think of it, someone should make those!! Would be hilarious. The regulars of this forum in card form. I want the Hugo card so I can challenge 'Number of Posts'!

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hfortenberry
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Not you

I wasn't speaking of anyone in particular. It's just that I've been around this support business for many years. I dated a call center manager and have worked in call centers and have done various other similar things to put me in close proximity to others like us.

I really think I am on to something here. Take Deuce, he said:

"give quick answers...and brutally to the point"

Now, the quick part is not disrespectful...it's the "brutally" part. It's possible to be "to the point" while respectful.

Just read through wolfcry's responses. I am telling you, he is on to something. Unlike him, I think most people, when they say they are being "honest" really mean, "I think you are an idiot and I'm going to pretend not to say it even though it's obvious to everyone listening that I'm calling you an idiot". That is a little underhanded but nobody admits to it.

These are my efforts to spread congruence in language. If you think about it, people who are claiming to be honest are actually being dishonest.

I am just being honest...but respectful. :rolleyes:

You guys are good-natured. I hope nobody takes offense to my thoughts. None are personal to anyone, just a general sense I've had for a while now.

Cheers,
Holly

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Argh, WALLS OF TEXT!

Argh, WALLS OF TEXT!

I know how I seem to be curt and mean to people but I try and construct my replies in a specific way.

When I first started I earned myself the title of Doctype Nazi, for obvious reasons Laughing out loud and I was horribly sarcastic and shouty, sometimes even using big bold red text.

But then I learnt it's better to say what you have to say while being nice about it, eg:

"You need a doctype to get IE to render in Standards Mode. Have a look at the stickies at the top of each forum (which you should have done before you posted) to help you do it".

I work in Tech Support and browse about 4 forums. NOBODY reads the stickies. Nobody reads instructions. Nobody pays any attention to the help offered to them or what they should do. For example, a member of staff where I work said to me the other day:

"I got a runtime error on my PC again"
me: "Is your PC still on so I can see what the error says?"
"No, I switched it off and I'm using a different PC".

Ack!

/e

Tyssen and Ed seem to have a nice manner Laughing out loud

http://csscreator.com/node/24891

Verschwindende wrote:
  • CSS doesn't make pies

hfortenberry
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I haven't been here long

I haven't been here long enough to notice all the nice guys but I'm sure there are many more than just wolfcry. Most respectful folks also have a healthy tendency not to respond if they are not in a good place, moodwise. So, it takes a while to meet all of them sometimes. It's just best to wait until you are ready to interact and not do it when you are ticked off.

Pineapplehead, you said:

-------

"You need a doctype to get IE to render in Standards Mode. Have a look at the stickies at the top of each forum (which you should have done before you posted) to help you do it".

------

This is just what I meant by being respectful, quick and helpful. This statement tells the newbie what is expected and doesn't waste either of their time.

I might even modify it a bit further to read (my change is in the parentheses):

-----
"You need a doctype to get IE to render in Standards Mode. Have a look at the stickies at the top of each forum (be sure to do this before you post next time) to help you do it".
-----

You will probably notice that just this slight change in wording makes a huge difference in the message being communicated.

This tells the person what is expected but has a tone that shows you expect that they are willing to do the right thing when given the chance. People love to rise to the occasion. Treat people as if they want to do the right thing, and it usually works. Also, with these kinds of responses nobody has to feel bad about themselves after sending or receiving them.

Thanks for the discussion pineapple and burlster.
Holly

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hfortenberry wrote: I might

hfortenberry wrote:

I might even modify it a bit further to read (my change is in the parentheses):

-----
"You need a doctype to get IE to render in Standards Mode. Have a look at the stickies at the top of each forum (be sure to do this before you post next time) to help you do it".
-----

Unfortunately, that won't help. Because next time the person posts they will ignore our requests.

I feel bad naming and shaming but Smudgie is notorious for ignoring our requests, every one of his posts has only given a small snippet of the code, and we constantly have to ask to see all of it.

But I see what you mean Wink

Verschwindende wrote:
  • CSS doesn't make pies

hfortenberry
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Quote:Unfortunately, that

Quote:
Unfortunately, that won't help. Because next time the person posts they will ignore our requests.

I feel bad naming and shaming but Smudgie is notorious for ignoring our requests, every one of his posts has only given a small snippet of the code, and we constantly have to ask to see all of it.

But I see what you mean Wink

Hi pineapple head (I crack up everytime I type that),

Regarding your message above:

See, that is why you guys get upset and irritated. IMO, people like "smudge" that do that do not appreciate or deserve your generous help, yet they feel entitled to it.

That's where I don't "seem" so nice. If somebody ignores my respectful request to follow the rules. Then as far as I am concerned, they have said (in not so many words) that they don't care. So, if they don't care, then I don't waste my time on them anymore. There are too many other people around who do care, who would be grateful for the help and who I would rather help.

To their own detriment, a lot of people mistake kindness for weakness.

Holly