19 replies [Last post]
vynsane
vynsane's picture
Offline
Regular
Last seen: 13 years 47 weeks ago
Joined: 2005-05-15
Posts: 45
Points: 0

i'm the webmaster at a non-profit who has a website that's been around for quite some time. they recently (within the last year...) revamped the style of the site, but didn't add a doctype, mainly because all the old javascript-driven forms they have on the site would crap out in firefox because they were created with IE5/6 in mind, and use things that FF doesn't like in compliant mode.

i created an all-CSS dropdown menu for one of the sections that needed more flexible navigation which works across the board except for IE7 (which, unfortunately, a lot of people are using already...) which requires the page to be in standards-compliance.

my question is basically thus: is there a way to have IE6/7 in standard compliance mode so the dropdown will work in 7, and have FF in quirks (or, failing that, "almost standards" mode) so the JS forms don't crap out?

the site is coded in html, not xhtml, so i would need a solution with an html doctype, if at all possible...

The technology is three months old. Only suckers buy out of date machines. You're not a sucker, are you sir? Because if you were I'd have to ask you to leave the store.

www.vynsane.com

drhowarddrfine
Offline
Leader
Last seen: 12 years 7 weeks ago
Timezone: GMT-6
Joined: 2005-05-21
Posts: 764
Points: 0

No that won't happen. It's

No that won't happen. It's so weird that someone would need to get FF into IEs quirks mode so their code can work.

IE7 is 10 years behind the standards or wrong.
But it works in IE!
IE is a cancer on the web -- Paul Thurott

thepineapplehead
thepineapplehead's picture
Offline
Guru
Last seen: 1 week 1 day ago
Joined: 2004-06-30
Posts: 9679
Points: 815

Why not just ditch the

Why not just ditch the bloated JS menu and use the CSS one?

And the people browsing with IE7 are living on the edge a bit, ain't they? (Mind you, I have been using Firefox 2.0 since alpha 3, it's on RC3 now Tongue)

Verschwindende wrote:
  • CSS doesn't make pies

vynsane
vynsane's picture
Offline
Regular
Last seen: 13 years 47 weeks ago
Joined: 2005-05-15
Posts: 45
Points: 0

drhowarddrfine wrote:No that

drhowarddrfine wrote:

No that won't happen.

yeah, i figured as much...

Quote:

It's so weird that someone would need to get FF into IEs quirks mode so their code can work.

oh, the irony of the situation is not lost on me... but it's not IE's quirks mode... it's firefox's quirks mode. and it's not my code.

at least with me on board, anything they develop here from now on will be based on a full doctype.

thepineapplehead wrote:

Why not just ditch the bloated JS menu and use the CSS one?

it's not a JS menu, it's other JS components that only work in FF when it's in quirks - because they used "document.all.tags" instead of "document.getElementById" or "document.getElementByTagName" - it's what drives a slideshow on the main page, hiding and showing

's based on a timecount... but i'm sure there are other items lurking in the shadows somewhere that would break if i were to switch to a full doctype. it's a large, LARGE site.

Quote:

And the people browsing with IE7 are living on the edge a bit, ain't they?

oh, here's another bit of irony for you... the company i work for caters to RISK MANAGERS!!!! yet a handfull of IT departments blindly upgraded to IE7 already!!!

The technology is three months old. Only suckers buy out of date machines. You're not a sucker, are you sir? Because if you were I'd have to ask you to leave the store.

www.vynsane.com

Hugo
Hugo's picture
Offline
Moderator
London
Last seen: 7 years 2 weeks ago
London
Joined: 2004-06-06
Posts: 15668
Points: 2806

If it is ever mentioned that

If it is ever mentioned that I suggested this I will disavow all knowledge and writs shall be flying to all those concerned!

But for the pages causing the problem why not try:

That will keep FF in quirks mode ( Oh the shame of this post) but allow IE to switch to Standards mode.

I have to go and have a shower now as I feel dirty and horrible.

Hugo.

Before you make your first post it is vital that you READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES!
----------------------------------------------------------------
Please post ALL your code - both CSS & HTML - in [code] tags
Please validate and ensure you have included a full Doctype before posting.
Why validate? Read Me

Hugo
Hugo's picture
Offline
Moderator
London
Last seen: 7 years 2 weeks ago
London
Joined: 2004-06-06
Posts: 15668
Points: 2806

Quote:a handfull of IT

Quote:
a handfull of IT departments blindly upgraded to IE7

Do what, IT department? tell them to remove the copies immediately or you'll report them for running beta software on systems and while you're at it slap them round the back of the head , erm repeatedly and with gusto!.

Before you make your first post it is vital that you READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES!
----------------------------------------------------------------
Please post ALL your code - both CSS & HTML - in [code] tags
Please validate and ensure you have included a full Doctype before posting.
Why validate? Read Me

Tyssen
Tyssen's picture
Offline
Moderator
Brisbane
Last seen: 7 years 14 weeks ago
Brisbane
Timezone: GMT+10
Joined: 2004-05-01
Posts: 8201
Points: 1386

I suppose another

I suppose another alternative would be to use a content negotiation script.

How to get help
Post a link. If you can't post a link, jsFiddle it.
My blog | My older articles | CSS Reference

Chris..S
Chris..S's picture
Offline
Moderator
Last seen: 9 years 18 weeks ago
Timezone: GMT+1
Joined: 2005-02-22
Posts: 6078
Points: 173

Hugo wrote:If it is ever

Hugo wrote:
If it is ever mentioned that I suggested this I will disavow all knowledge and writs shall be flying to all those concerned!

But for the pages causing the problem why not try:

That will keep FF in quirks mode ( Oh the shame of this post) but allow IE to switch to Standards mode.

I have to go and have a shower now as I feel dirty and horrible.

Hugo.

Does this work Hugo?

It seems to violate two principles. Anything before a Doctype puts IE into quirks mode. Loose is pretty much quirks mode anyway. I guess I should test it...

Hugo
Hugo's picture
Offline
Moderator
London
Last seen: 7 years 2 weeks ago
London
Joined: 2004-06-06
Posts: 15668
Points: 2806

It appears to work Chris, at

It appears to work Chris, at least it seemed to but I admit I tested in haste, knocking out the DTD altogether threw an IE layout off, adding in the Conditional statement brought it back to standards rendering I guess that IE recognizes conditional comments as something to be parsed and understands them rather than any old characters placed before the DTD which is after all just a bug IE threw in for fun.

Loose was just used as poster suggested it, I tested with a strict DTD.

I think that it violates all that's principled and good and feel utterly shamed at suggesting this approach Smile

Hugo.

Before you make your first post it is vital that you READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES!
----------------------------------------------------------------
Please post ALL your code - both CSS & HTML - in [code] tags
Please validate and ensure you have included a full Doctype before posting.
Why validate? Read Me

Hugo
Hugo's picture
Offline
Moderator
London
Last seen: 7 years 2 weeks ago
London
Joined: 2004-06-06
Posts: 15668
Points: 2806

Harking back to the original

Harking back to the original post though if it has been tested that FF will work in almost standards mode then a trans DTD should work for both , with Mozilla a trans or loose DTD with System Identifier effects 'Almost Standards Mode' but with IE it is all or nothing as long as the trans DTD is supplied with a System Identifier it will be in full standards mode.

Hugo.

Before you make your first post it is vital that you READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES!
----------------------------------------------------------------
Please post ALL your code - both CSS & HTML - in [code] tags
Please validate and ensure you have included a full Doctype before posting.
Why validate? Read Me

vynsane
vynsane's picture
Offline
Regular
Last seen: 13 years 47 weeks ago
Joined: 2005-05-15
Posts: 45
Points: 0

Hugo wrote:If it is ever

Hugo wrote:
If it is ever mentioned that I suggested this I will disavow all knowledge and writs shall be flying to all those concerned!

But for the pages causing the problem why not try:

That will keep FF in quirks mode ( Oh the shame of this post) but allow IE to switch to Standards mode.

I have to go and have a shower now as I feel dirty and horrible.

Hugo.

verrrrry interesting... i figured using a conditional before the doctype would negate the effect of the doctype, since it's basically a comment before all other content... i will test throughly the next time i'm working for them. and then also take a shower.

Hugo wrote:
Quote:
a handfull of IT departments blindly upgraded to IE7

Do what, IT department? tell them to remove the copies immediately or you'll report them for running beta software on systems and while you're at it slap them round the back of the head , erm repeatedly and with gusto!.

i wish i could, but neither i nor the rest of my department has any say as to what they do - and it's a moot point, seeing as how they just released the final version of IE7... Wink

Hugo wrote:
It appears to work Chris, at least it seemed to but I admit I tested in haste, knocking out the DTD altogether threw an IE layout off, adding in the Conditional statement brought it back to standards rendering I guess that IE recognizes conditional comments as something to be parsed and understands them rather than any old characters placed before the DTD which is after all just a bug IE threw in for fun.

the site is already functioning without ANY doctype (the shame... not my fault, though, too much development long before i got there...) so that's no problem. i'll probably only use the

since i need ONLY IE7 in standard mode.

Quote:

Loose was just used as poster suggested it, I tested with a strict DTD.

i'd rather go with loose, because it's an old CMS managed site, which churns out the worst looking code you could imagine... they're working on getting a new CMS, but for the time being it's what i've got to work with...

Quote:

I think that it violates all that's principled and good and feel utterly shamed at suggesting this approach Smile

Hugo.

well, i appreciate your shame - and your help. if this works it would be really great.

The technology is three months old. Only suckers buy out of date machines. You're not a sucker, are you sir? Because if you were I'd have to ask you to leave the store.

www.vynsane.com

drhowarddrfine
Offline
Leader
Last seen: 12 years 7 weeks ago
Timezone: GMT-6
Joined: 2005-05-21
Posts: 764
Points: 0

Piney killed Hugo! You

Piney killed Hugo!
You B***ard!

IE7 is 10 years behind the standards or wrong.
But it works in IE!
IE is a cancer on the web -- Paul Thurott

thepineapplehead
thepineapplehead's picture
Offline
Guru
Last seen: 1 week 1 day ago
Joined: 2004-06-30
Posts: 9679
Points: 815

drhowarddrfine wrote:Piney

drhowarddrfine wrote:
Piney killed Hugo!
You B***ard!

Hehehehehehe Laughing out loud :D Laughing out loud

Verschwindende wrote:
  • CSS doesn't make pies

Hugo
Hugo's picture
Offline
Moderator
London
Last seen: 7 years 2 weeks ago
London
Joined: 2004-06-06
Posts: 15668
Points: 2806

I just knew that I should

I just knew that I should have opened a new account to post this one under, I'll never get to live it down!.

Before you make your first post it is vital that you READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES!
----------------------------------------------------------------
Please post ALL your code - both CSS & HTML - in [code] tags
Please validate and ensure you have included a full Doctype before posting.
Why validate? Read Me

Hugo
Hugo's picture
Offline
Moderator
London
Last seen: 7 years 2 weeks ago
London
Joined: 2004-06-06
Posts: 15668
Points: 2806

It will or at least should

It will or at least should work with the IE 7 version number. The conditional comments return quirks mode or (backcompat) with IE6 when set to <!--[IF IE 7]> and demonstrates definite quirks mode rendering whilst IE7 renders layout as expected for (CSS1 compat) although I can't test that as IE7 won't run javascript at least not as standalone version, which I'm beginning to trust slightly less.

Hugo.

Before you make your first post it is vital that you READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES!
----------------------------------------------------------------
Please post ALL your code - both CSS & HTML - in [code] tags
Please validate and ensure you have included a full Doctype before posting.
Why validate? Read Me

vynsane
vynsane's picture
Offline
Regular
Last seen: 13 years 47 weeks ago
Joined: 2005-05-15
Posts: 45
Points: 0

just fyi, everybody... this

just fyi, everybody... this DOES work! i did a test page with the code above, and using the "javascript:alert(document.compatMode)" on FF i get "BackCompat" and with IE7 i get "CSS1Compat"... that's crazy stuff!!! i tried it as above, with conditional for all IE versions, and then tried it for just IE7:

and still get "CSS1Compat"...

Hugo, interesting on the IE6 front... but how is the stand-alone IE7 working at all with the conditional? i thought stand-alone versions didn't understand conditionals as they think they are the installed version... at least IE6 does, maybe IE7 is built differently...

The technology is three months old. Only suckers buy out of date machines. You're not a sucker, are you sir? Because if you were I'd have to ask you to leave the store.

www.vynsane.com

Hugo
Hugo's picture
Offline
Moderator
London
Last seen: 7 years 2 weeks ago
London
Joined: 2004-06-06
Posts: 15668
Points: 2806

The chap who got together

The chap who got together the standalone version has sorted out small problems like this and updated his installer package, I'll hunt the link down so that all may avail themselves. It appears to work pretty well with minor problems such as being unable to get it past my firewall as it appears as a hidden process! what worries me though - and I need to read the original scripting notes available- is that standalone has to write to over a thousand registry keys and what I fear is that it then has to clear them when browser closed if that's the case ones registry will pack up very quickly at least it ought to if deleted lines are still not removed as days of old.

Before you make your first post it is vital that you READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES!
----------------------------------------------------------------
Please post ALL your code - both CSS & HTML - in [code] tags
Please validate and ensure you have included a full Doctype before posting.
Why validate? Read Me

Hugo
Hugo's picture
Offline
Moderator
London
Last seen: 7 years 2 weeks ago
London
Joined: 2004-06-06
Posts: 15668
Points: 2806

The link for the standalone

The link for the standalone installer package :

http://tredosoft.com/node/25

However as I felt, I would be rather cautious installing this as I now see problems being reported and am not sure whether the author is now recommending that people don't install it, doing this sort of thing on MS systems has always been to court extreme danger, although so far I have been able to run both IE6 & IE7 at the same time without obvious problems but am now waiting for things to blow up in my face.

http://tredosoft.com/IE7_standalone

There is also this version without installer:
jon Galloway : IE7 Standalone

Before you make your first post it is vital that you READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES!
----------------------------------------------------------------
Please post ALL your code - both CSS & HTML - in [code] tags
Please validate and ensure you have included a full Doctype before posting.
Why validate? Read Me

vynsane
vynsane's picture
Offline
Regular
Last seen: 13 years 47 weeks ago
Joined: 2005-05-15
Posts: 45
Points: 0

i've been using the various

i've been using the various versions of IE7 off and on when i need to test something (actually pretty painless to install/uninstall... it rolls right back to IE6...) and i would subsequently use the stand-alone IE6... the only drawback to the SA IE6 is the conditional comment problem. other than that, it's good to have for testing for compatability.

now that IE7 final is released, i don't see the need for a stand-alone IE7... at least not for my purposes...

The technology is three months old. Only suckers buy out of date machines. You're not a sucker, are you sir? Because if you were I'd have to ask you to leave the store.

www.vynsane.com

Hugo
Hugo's picture
Offline
Moderator
London
Last seen: 7 years 2 weeks ago
London
Joined: 2004-06-06
Posts: 15668
Points: 2806

I've not found problems yet

I've not found problems yet and I guess now that IE7 is final the best approach is to allow an update and then run IE6 as the standalone, regardless though standalones are never a good idea for every person successfully running one you will hear from two that ended up with a mess.

MS should really start being a friend to the developer and organize a developers standalone version after all it's their fault we have to go through this s***

Before you make your first post it is vital that you READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES!
----------------------------------------------------------------
Please post ALL your code - both CSS & HTML - in [code] tags
Please validate and ensure you have included a full Doctype before posting.
Why validate? Read Me