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thecatat
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all,

i was wondering if anyone would help me out. i'm new at css [but determined to learn].

over at a forum i've belonged to for years, there is a discussion going on and i do not feel qualified to answer his questions.

could someone please step in and help with facts? it's at the about.com graphic design forum, discussion is in the 'web' folder, subject - 'Graphically pleasing css sites?'

http://forums.about.com/ab-graphicdes/messages/?msg=8226.110&redirCnt=1

btw - to introduce myself, i'm cat, and i plan on being here for awhile [if you can please bear with me while i learn].

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co2
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Hi thecatat

Had a quick look at the forum but there where too many posts to follow (not the nicest looking forum to browse through)! Plus, I could spread my time a bit thinly posting on too many forums! :roll: Laughing out loud

What's the issue exactly, you simply want some examples of decent CSS sites? (I read the first few posts, but was hoping it didn't transpire into a different question than this).

Some of the links posted seem to be the standard... did you try the links at: http://www.zeldman.com/externals/

Near the bottom there a some CSS site links, and some very nicely designed sites (though not sure if all are CSS-based).

Anyway, concerning designing a 'nice' site with CSS. Anything achievable by way of table-based design, should be (perhaps easier) achievable with pure CSS design. It simply takes a little time to break through the pain barrier of relearning how to design and develop a site in CSS.

One particular site I am working on at present is very much design orientated. It was designed by ourselves 12-months ago. The client since requested it to be validated and standards accessible.

Unfortunately, at present we are awaiting our own domain name to resolve (today). When it does, I'll post the link to our example of the site (the proper site needs a log-in which I cannot give out). Here's a screenshot anyway.

Anyway, we've managed to get the site looking exactly as it did originally, and cut the code by approx 50%!

The next sentence is true. The previous sentence is false. Discuss...

ClevaTreva
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Hi Cat

Is that s*xy looking girl you? (on the katzi page) Laughing out loud

I read enough of the thread to see where it was going.

Understand that css is not all there is to web site design.

As with many things in life, you can approach a problem from many angles.

So, coz, from what I can see your are really good at getting the graphic design done, you obviously start from that.

I think most of the members in this forum start the other way. Make a skeleton into which the text can fit, and the graphics can be set into the background.

So, when making the graphics, in the back of your mind must be whether it can be rendered in css and made functional.

Most sites I see are like yours, original, or of the header/columns/footer type. Some are just awful.

The problem with doing original designs is making them work in css and making it work across browsers. This is because you have to make the css skeleton, which can the hard part. The advantage of doing common designs is that someone else has already done it, so you can start from their css and work forwards.

You will see lots of folk asking for helkp with their sites here (fine tuning the css). I see so many excellent designs, just browsing through the threads will yield tons of ideas.

Trevor

thecatat
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howdy,

<<Had a quick look at the forum but there where too many posts to follow (not the nicest looking forum to browse through)! Plus, I could spread my time a bit thinly posting on too many forums! :roll: Laughing out loud

sorry about that. i tend to forget how wordy the abouts posts get.

<<What's the issue exactly, you simply want some examples of decent CSS sites? (I read the first few posts, but was hoping it didn't transpire into a different question than this).

one of the regulars [flash designer] posted that he was sceptical about the future of css. i'm not qualified so wanted someone from here to answer the bone he threw out.

<< When it does, I'll post the link to our example of the site (the proper site needs a log-in which I cannot give out). Here's a screenshot anyway.

nice. i'll be looking forward to your post. if i can get on that is. i've come up with 5 errors so far in the attempt to get this posted.

ClevaTreva
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Hi

Unsure about css? I wonder what rock he has been living under?

All browsers are heading towards two standards:

xml and css3

css3 has some time before release, but xml is settled and ready, but browser support is yet to come.

So we (designers) are working with xhtml and css2 for now.

For mobile devices, css is the only answer.

xml relies on css, without which it can't exist.

The concept of css is one which will force it to be the standard. It removes styling from content, thus making site styling changes much easier.

The (theoretical) advantage of css is that it should be rendered the same in all browsers (if only Msoft can get their act together).

Trevor

co2
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Exactly, added to fact that, since this guy is a Flash designer... Flash is a proprietary software, not governed by the need for standards (though Macromedia pushes it's standards abilities with each release). Since governments in particular and other large organisations are starting to realise the need not to lock themselves into proprietary solutions, undoubtedly the knock-on effect into development such as the Internet will take effect (not that they all jumped on Flash anyway). Standards will be the new buzzword in town amongst marketing department soon. Flash will always be playing catch-up because it doesn't come from the horses mouth which is the W3C.

CSS has been designed to accommodate all aspects of communication, not just visual PC based browsers such as IE, Mozilla etc. but also text-based, mobile-based, aural-based. CSS can even cater for print-based styling (which, coming from a print background myself, I believe has yet to be fully touched upon in real-world terms). Organisations are starting to find this aspect very appealing indeed.

Treva rightly discusses XML. Hell, the work being produced based on XML at present is outstanding (look at big business initiatives such as XBRL etc.) It's all kicking off. As mentioned, Flash will always be playing catchup with such standards.

CSS will only get easier, or rather, being able to communicate both correctly, and to make the design look great with CSS will only get easier, as the standards for CSS are updated.

I could think – as I am sure many others here will – of many more (probably better) examples, but that's a start I suppose.

The next sentence is true. The previous sentence is false. Discuss...

ClevaTreva
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Hi co2

Couldn't have said it better.

Trevor

thecatat
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trevor,

sorry for not answering right away, but it's not from the lack of trying. i'm having problems posting on this forum for one reason or another. we've been having storms so the connections not what it should be and iv'e been trying to reply ever since you posted. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. i've switched to another machine in the hopes that this forum just didn't like the other one. this will be my last attempt unfortunately, as i not a patient person [understatement]

<<Is that s*xy looking girl you? (on the katzi page) Laughing out loud

if you mean on the katz site, then i'd have to say yes.

[although i'll apologize right now because it's long due for an over-haul as not everything is working anymore now that the newer versions are out. the katz site i mean, not me]

i understand what you mean about the ways of looking at designing a site. [and thanks for the compliments].

but i didn't realize that the approach to css was so different, only that i like what i doing so far [and when i mean not much, i'm not kidding].

a bit of history - as i said, i'm very new at css. a couple of weeks ago i realized i wanted to learn so after looking around, bought a g5 along with dwmx 2004 because [for me] everything pointed in that direction. played around with a style sheet from bluerobot for a client that needed a site asap [we will be redoing the site, but they just needed bones and bones they got]. then looked at some css 'how to' sites then had to face the fact that i need more structure. yesterday bought the 'Dreamweaver MX: Building on Solid Foundations' pdf because of the promise of css training as well as dw. they also have a great support group dealt with via newsgroups so i have someone at the other end listening to my ridiculous screams for help - http://www.projectseven.com/foundations/index.htm

now that i'm finally embarking on this insane adventure, i think i'm going to like it. [that's IF i can get into this blinking forum :-]

ClevaTreva
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Hi Cat

I'm NOT going to post a pic of me coz it would put people off using the web Laughing out loud

As far as coding is concerned, most folk start with something like DW, but end up hand coding, coz DW puts so much cr*p in and messes up so often.

On the Mac, I think (so I'm told) BBEdit is good.

On the PC, WebCoder v4 is probably the best.

To get you started, I launched (less than an hour ago) a css site creation tool that makes the skeleton for you, if you want a 2 or 3 column design with header and footer.

Find the link toward the bottom of this page (but please read the notes first):

http://207.44.137.103/ctindex.php

If you have any problems with it, contact me here by PM.

Trevor

thecatat
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trevor,

no worries about the photo. i post mine on both katz and creative latitude because, well, i just do. it's a warm and fuzzy thing.

<<As far as coding is concerned, most folk start with something like DW, but end up hand coding, coz DW puts so much cr*p in and messes up so often.

and that's the way i'm going. dw. especially as i just forked out B$4000 for the g5 and B$700 for dwmx 2004, and the extra for the course. i'm already doing some coding by hand, but i'm no where near confident enough to go cold turkey [and i HAVE to get my moneys worth]

btw - although dw is supposed to put in garbage here and there, dwmx 2004 claims to be the cleanest. we'll see.

<<To get you started, I launched (less than an hour ago) a css site creation tool that makes the skeleton for you, if you want a 2 or 3 column design with header and footer.

after reading it a bit, i've booked your site for the future. i'm sure to need it, but for now i've just got to try the way i'm going. [yeah, you'll laugh at me when i come slinking back, right?]

i'm not a programmer. my brain is set in design mode. totally. to get myself even sort of confident i must start out with training wheels [dw], then, and only then will i venture out with you big boys and fly.

thanks for taking the time and posting that link. i have a feeling it's going to save my life someday Smile

cat