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drhowarddrfine
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When I was a ham radio operator, you'd get frustrated with some of the nonsense on the air and use the phrase "kids, lids and space cadets" as an insult describing the type of people you had run into. After having spent the last two years or more on forums like this one, I have narrowed it down to two or three that are worth visiting. Yes, this is one of them.

It is beyond comprehension to see posts by, so called, professional web designers who scoff at standard coding techniques, the W3C, and any browser other than IE. You get a feel for the pattern of such posters and come to realize these people created a web site once and it's the kind with the little doggie running back and forth at the bottom of the page and it is "best viewed in ...."

While I'm all in favor of helping the hobbyist, it is just refreshing to come to a forum like this one and, generally, find leading edge authors who study the specs, understand the problems, call BS what it is, and don't put up with a lot of childish nonsense. In my own business, I notice that it rolls downhill and how well a business, or web site, operates is a reflection of those higher up.

One forum I visit looks very nice, very professional, and I like how it works. But the posters work up a lather about the most insane garbage I have ever heard.

I thought I was going to be much more thoughtful with what I was going to write. I know there are many more forums that I have never looked at but, right now, there are only two or three I think are worth visiting. The rest are just populated with kids, lids and space cadets.

IE7 is 10 years behind the standards or wrong.
But it works in IE!
IE is a cancer on the web -- Paul Thurott

Lorraine
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Quote:
One forum I visit looks very nice, very professional, and I like how it works. But the posters work up a lather about the most insane garbage I have ever heard.

How very dare you.
Just kidding, I have seen your screenie on one forum in particular and, frankly, you are quite right. The real stumbling block is those professionals (note the small p) who have been turning out garbage for their clients for years yet still get new and repeat business - caveat emptor eh? They are volume posters and SHOUT at all who talk about standards, validation, css-p, accessibility and all that most people here seem to hold dear. That attitude is not easy to overcome and their words always seem to listened to and acted upon. Any ideas on how to overcome this, anyone?

Lorraine
(my real name, btw, used on one other forum only, but not the screenie (there are several) by which I am known on some fora that I consider deserve a bit of trolling and where most volume posters would benefit from a kick in their WYSIWYGs. :-$ )

HellsBells
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My view is that the vast majority of these "it's not worth it" types simply aren't capable of moving beyond their 10 year old techniques.

I look at the sites created by these people (when they have the guts to actually publish the URL) and I don't see an attractive site albeit built with "old" techniques. 99% of the time I see a very boring, unattractive lump of a site. They complain that CSS sites all look the same - well frankly, the troll sites look pretty much the same to me.

Oddly for those who aren't interested in standards I've caught these are the same trolls going to my site and sticking it through the validator - cheeky b******s.

These people will be with us for a long while yet I'm afraid (unless IE7 is much much better than feared!) and I think the only answer to the question "why bother making sites cross-browser, valid and accessible" is either "professional pride" or "well why wouldn't you?"

My strategy is so simple an idiot could have devised it!

"Also, your CSS (no offence) makes me want to gouge my eyes out with a rusty spoon" - TPH

drhowarddrfine
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I've found I've gotten really cranky for quite a while now and unwilling to help some people with their code. Part of the reason is I'm working on some Unix/C heavy duty stuff that's not at all related to web coding and I find myself forgetting things. But I'll see someone posting some poop and I wonder what the heck they are thinking about? I also see some of our favorite posters don't post as much and I can't help but think they are turned off or burned out with the inane statements. I am really trying to force myself to stick to the few and the proud sites but can't help jumping in and defending truth and justice.

IE7 is 10 years behind the standards or wrong.
But it works in IE!
IE is a cancer on the web -- Paul Thurott

Tyssen
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Sounds like I'm lucky enough not to have stumbled across these sites you're talking about. But then I'm quite easily satisfied so when I find something I like, I tend not to go looking around for alternatives. I mean, I eat the same thing for lunch every day. Laughing out loud

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Anonymous
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drhowarddrfine wrote:
I also see some of our favorite posters don't post as much and I can't help but think they are turned off or burned out with the inane statements.
Unfortunately, I think your suspicions are correct.

thepineapplehead
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drhowarddrfine wrote:
I also see some of our favorite posters don't post as much and I can't help but think they are turned off or burned out with the inane statements.

I must say, there have been a lot of topics recently with nice, valid code. I admit it, I'm the first one to suggest a doctype and validation, but when it comes to proper code, often I have no idea what the problem is, so can't help.

Verschwindende wrote:
  • CSS doesn't make pies

Lorraine
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Triumph wrote:
drhowarddrfine wrote:
I also see some of our favorite posters don't post as much and I can't help but think they are turned off or burned out with the inane statements.
Unfortunately, I think your suspicions are correct.

Just maybe those posters of yesterday see their job as done. They do appear, from time to time, perhaps, in a kind of watching brief. Yes - people are referring others to my solutions. Yes - some of those I have helped are now passing on their knowledge to others. My job here may be done, now I can go back to earning a living or, perhaps, to educating some neanderthals on other fora.

Time moves on and it's not done to interject when folks steam through leaving their mark on nearly every thread. Wink

Hugo
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Quote:
Time moves on and it's not done to interject when folks steam through leaving their mark on nearly every thread.

How true!

Before you make your first post it is vital that you READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES!
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Please post ALL your code - both CSS & HTML - in [code] tags
Please validate and ensure you have included a full Doctype before posting.
Why validate? Read Me

drhowarddrfine
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I have really reached my boiling point.

IE7 is 10 years behind the standards or wrong.
But it works in IE!
IE is a cancer on the web -- Paul Thurott

Tyssen
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Here or elsewhere?

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drhowarddrfine wrote:
I am really trying to force myself to stick to the few and the proud sites but can't help jumping in and defending truth and justice.

I am only turned off by my own posts, I can't speak for our favorite posters.

This is my big chance . . . yep, I blew it . . .

larmyia
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drhowarddrfine wrote:
I have really reached my boiling point.


a problem shared is a problem halved.

allegedly.

larmyia

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Sometimes I dispare at so called professionals, just today I was looking at a tender with the following question.

Quote:
Templates can be made with industry standard tools like Macromedia Dreamweaver and Adobe GoLive

With people thinking that these are "industry standard tools" still, and worse, a good thing to be using, we still have some way to go before you can stop using your "Kids, lids, space cadets" thing I fear. Oh how I dispare sometimes, but then the good folk here shine a becon of sesibility and I realise that there is hope!

drhowarddrfine
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Tyssen wrote:
Here or elsewhere?
Elsewhere. Newbie says IE is the one true browser while Firefox screws everything up. Tells me I'm full of baloney. Moderator thought my response was too strong and deleted my post but still allows the baloney post to exist. I didn't cuss the guy or call him names and you guys know how I post so I just won't go there anymore and told them so. That's the second forum I have "banned" from my list. :roll:

IE7 is 10 years behind the standards or wrong.
But it works in IE!
IE is a cancer on the web -- Paul Thurott

fatfreddy
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Triumph wrote:
drhowarddrfine wrote:
I also see some of our favorite posters don't post as much and I can't help but think they are turned off or burned out with the inane statements.
Unfortunately, I think your suspicions are correct.

Make the search box BIGGER, maybe that will encourage posters to look first, ask later.

webecho

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drhowarddrfine
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Not to beat a dead horse but this is what got my blood boiling at the "other" forum. Essentially, I told someone what Hugo said to someone, here, today:

Quote:
we do ask that people first, before thinking of posting, ensure that they have a standards rendering page and that it is free of errors in the markup and CSS this means that it is incumbent on you to present your work without obvious errors rather than have us have to tell you to validate your markup , it's not what were here for!
The moderator said I was expecting too much of people. I said I would not belong to any forum that expected less or didn't think people needed to be taught this. The mod even deleted my post!

I will never darken that door again.

IE7 is 10 years behind the standards or wrong.
But it works in IE!
IE is a cancer on the web -- Paul Thurott

HellsBells
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Doc

Here's something you can use to refer people to when they can't be bothered to read the stickies, form their questions properly or are otherwise generally idiots:

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/youare.php

(ensure your speakers are on)

My strategy is so simple an idiot could have devised it!

"Also, your CSS (no offence) makes me want to gouge my eyes out with a rusty spoon" - TPH

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Yes . . . it's a movie that . . . helps you fix your page . . . yeeees

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  • CSS doesn't make pies

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HB that's too wicked, shame on you Smile

Doc in a sense I suppose the mod on this other forum was correct in one sense but misguided in another it is too much to expect everyone to do this yet the inference is that it is pointless even attempting to try; this is wrong.

It is never too much to expect of people to pay attention and observe some basic but elementary and necessary conditions that ought to amount to a pre-requisite to accessing the resources, experience and knowledge that members have to offer on a forum. we here have a laid back and friendly demeanor and hopefully do not push rules on people too much , yet if it is never mentioned then standards can begin to slide, it is wrong to contend that to gently remind people that they ought to be following some essential guidelines is pointless or can create a officious nature, it does not, it clarifies and reminds people that they must not take for granted the help they may receive from members. It, in the long run, stabilizes a forum and maintains it as a place that people will want to belong to .

As for deleting your post, that seems a bit of a strong reaction, deleting posts other than for a small number of reasons deny's someone a voice and is simply the worst abuse of power mods can exercise, unless you were being abusive a discussion of that nature may have served to highlight an issue, then again it's up to them how they run their forum I guess.

Hugo.

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fatfreddy
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Can we change the announcement title from" how and when to ask for help"

to "READ THIS BEFORE POSTING!"

or something along those lines
I think it may be too understated at the moment

just a thought

Freddy

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Man, I don't remember which forum I ended up finding, but it had a JS popup that was nearly identical to a service agreement. I had to scroll down and click a check box . . . but the content was basically, "how to post" with huge bold print on those pesky annoyances . . . pretty funny actually . . . because one couldn't get past without agreeing to the forum terms. :twisted:

This is my big chance . . . yep, I blew it . . .

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fatfreddy wrote:
Can we change the announcement title from" how and when to ask for help"

to "READ THIS BEFORE POSTING!"

or something along those lines
I think it may be too understated at the moment

just a thought

Freddy

That's what the sticky is called in the How To section . . . but as we know, nobody ever goes in there. In fact, nobody ever reads stickies. EVER.

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fatfreddy
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I reckon put it in the top position in every forum category

Obviously it will only get read by those that are half keen to do the right thing ...

The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once
--Albert Einstein

Accessible webdesign Australia - webechodesigns