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Smee
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This has reared it's head again for me and spurred on by a link in a post of Cupid's, I've been chasing around and pondering it again...and not coming to a conclusion again.

I suppose it's very subjective. I'm aware of the reasons (well, some) for using serif - we're used to it from books and newspapers, serifs lead the eye along the line etc.

What I'm wondering is...has the pervasive use of sans-serif and the web changed this at all?

What do folk here prefer?

Do you override the website fonts with your browser setting so that you everything in one font?

Leading makes a difference (as does font-size) how do you know how much is right? Is it always a trade off between readability and space gobbling?

Some samples...

Sans
http://www.subtraction.com/
http://garrettdimon.com/archives/2007/2/16/designing_for_content/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leading#endnote_Eck95

Serif
http://www.inspirationbit.com/georgia-on-my-mind/ (interesting liquid treatment this)
http://www.paumanokreview.com/index.php
http://jasonsantamaria.com/

Mixed
http://2008.gr0w.com/

Interested in any and all opinion...thanks

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Personally, I prefer serif

Personally, I prefer serif for main content. I find it more readable.

I consider this a Triumph.

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I can appreciate that and

I can appreciate that and then I see well thought out page and can't make up my mind again. Thanks Smile

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Pssssshhhh. Designy people

Pssssshhhh.

Designy people will always whine about fonts being "boring" while the rest of us whine about how designy people keep using unreadable fonts for teh Pretteh.

http://www.bradcolbow.com/archive.php/?p=130 should explain everything.

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Stomme poes wrote: while the

Stomme poes wrote:

while the rest of us whine about how designy people keep using unreadable fonts for teh Pretteh

Real designers don't choose unreadable fonts; only pretend ones do.

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.

Umm...'tisn't about the design Poes but I truly get the comic!!! Every site I go to these days wants my email address.

BUT - see that teensy-weensy print underneath? The State and Local govt sites here have an absolute penchant for using it on their sites.

It's more about the readability and I agree with Tyssen and thought afterwards that I should have included his site as an example of something that was neither Arial nor Georgia (Lucida). But I couldn't edit my post by the time I thought of it. By-the-by Tyssen what is that font in your article headings please?

Cupid...since you started me on this again, this is in case you haven't run across it...mouse carefully over everything in the header. No need to click. I found it a couple of years ago then lost the bookmark with my old machine and just discovered it again tonight. I know we don't like animated but I have to admire the skill and restraint here.

Back to fonts please...have you got used to reading arial?

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Verdana

Verdana

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I font typography making a

I feel typography is making a huge impact in the way sites are designed these days; being used as a design piece as well as content. I personally believe serif fonts are hard to read at smaller font sizes, like body text. Serif fonts look great at a lager scale like headings.

Smee, that heading is pretty cool. I do like how they are very subtle movements. You really have to focus in on some of those. Smee, what thread did I start that got you caught up in all this?

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Smee wrote: By-the-by Tyssen

Smee wrote:

By-the-by Tyssen what is that font in your article headings please?

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Thanks Tyssen. Cupid

Thanks Tyssen.

Cupid wrote:

Smee, that heading is pretty cool. I do like how they are very subtle movements. You really have to focus in on some of those. Smee, what thread did I start that got you caught up in all this?

Isn't it amazing? Bet you still missed the Ferris wheel seats and the lion's blink though Wink Oh...maybe not if you were watching for the pointer to change.

Here's a 2004 post on v3 of Jason Santa Maria's site telling about the sideshow's launch.

Kevin Cornell was the artist and is where you now find the link to the sideshow.

I seem to have latched on to you as starting this latest round but I think it was a combination of me already thinking about fonts, your thread about Web Design Mistakes and my comment about proof reading combined with
the Splash Page thread
where I ended up looking at the Daily Sucker because I hadn't visited in so long and I may have followed a link from there.

Convoluted I know but there you are - innocent and guilty, both at the same time Big smile

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Hugo wrote: Verdana Well

Hugo wrote:

Verdana

Well that was pithy Wink Thought you preferred everything in Georgia, what changed your mind?

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Georgia wasn't on my mind

Georgia wasn't on my mind Big smile you need to know your musical references to get that!

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Lawlz, Hugo, they leave the

Lawlz, Hugo, they leave the West behind!

Verdana has one very important quality to it: it can show the difference between I and l. Sooo many other fonts, like Arial and Helvetica, can't. And that's just so freakin wrong.

But Verdana has a larger x-height than the other two, so I won't use it in menus and things where sizes are font-based... same goes for Georgia for the same reason.

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There was another thread

There was another thread where font embedding was being discussed and a tangent to the main point was the nature of how fonts are produced and a thing called font 'Hints' which is information compiled into the font file to aid in the better rendering of the font, interestingly the chap(very well known font luminary) who created Verdana hand wrote the hints which is the ultimate approach for exactness and thus Verdana actually renders extremely well.

I've always thought Verdana gave exceptional results and never quite got all the hysterical hatred levelled at it by supposed typography experts.

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Hugo wrote: ... I've always

Hugo wrote:

... I've always thought Verdana gave exceptional results and never quite got all the hysterical hatred levelled at it by supposed typography experts.

I think they mostly complain that it was designed for web rendering and not print. Something like that.

I consider this a Triumph.

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Hugo wrote: Georgia wasn't on

Hugo wrote:

Georgia wasn't on my mind Big smile you need to know your musical references to get that!

Check the pic Wink

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Ray Of course not the

Ray Cool

Of course not the original version though!

hmm Georgia should perhaps get a dusting off tis definitely an elegant font

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Must be the Stardust in my

Must be the Stardust in my eyes...mind you, I did rather like Willie's version and that page of InspirationBits was just so appropriate.

Quote:

hmm Georgia should perhaps get a dusting off tis definitely an elegant font

When I saw that article and the referenced sites I was struck by a similar idea which prompted this whole thread.

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Hugo wrote: I've always

Hugo wrote:

I've always thought Verdana gave exceptional results and never quite got all the hysterical hatred levelled at it by supposed typography experts.

The problem with Verdana is mostly that it doesn't play nicely with other similar fonts. If you design your site with Verdana you will find a significant difference in size with browsers that don't have verdana installed and display other sans-serif fonts instead. Verdana appears unusually large for it's em height.

A lot of designers use Verdana throughout their design processes and then get a big surprise when it looks quite wrong to them on a Mac or Linux based browser.

Here is a link to an explanation for this.

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Neither does Georgia

Georgia has the same problem.

So, to use Verdana effectively, you can pretty much only try to pair it with other large fonts (bitstream vera sans and deja vu sans are what I use) and then check your site for degredation by temporarily setting everything to helvetica.

"Eds article" wrote:

One is that the author conforms to general best practise, and leaves the font at the default size. That results in text like this (assuming you have Verdana installed), which looks, for most people, unnecessarily large and unattractive.

If I need readers to know the difference between I and l then to hell with people thinking it's large and unattractive. Later in the article the author says size doesn't matter, because people can change font size. Fine, user with Verdana can't stand the ugliness of large, readable text, can do CTRL-- or whatever their browser does and stop whinging : )

Really, I find it a serious flaw of most other sans-serif fonts. The idea of letting to completely different letters look the same is just appalling.

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I find serif more readable.

I find serif more readable. what is "originality" in comparison with intelligibility?

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scept1c wrote: I find serif

scept1c wrote:

I find serif more readable. what is "originality" in comparison with intelligibility?

Well, all the readability studies still favour sans-serif for normal sized text. I agree with them.

Even the best monitor does not yet approach the resolution and contrast of even cheap newsprint. The web is not paper, and the serif fonts little curlicues, designed to guide the eye on paper, use so few pixels that instead, on a CRT or LCD screen they tend to confuse it instead.

Serif fonts are great for decorations and headers, but you should probably still avoid them for normal text, remembering that there are a lot of aging eyes browsing web pages these days, and the percentage of those with weak eyesight is only going to rise for about the next two or three decades.

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(No subject)

all » http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/all

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ROFL!

ROFL! Laughing out loud I guess your opinion is loud and clear then. Did you do that or was there and article attached somewhere?

I've realised that I've backed myself into a corner anyway...have to use sans serif because I used italic Fontin in my logo and had the 'g' changed cos I didn't like the bump in it. If I use it anywhere else, it will have the bump everywhere. But it was interesting to find out what others thought.

So did the move go well and is the weather more to your liking?

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No, i was actually using

No, i was actually using StumbleUpon and find that image and giggled and it reminded me of this thread so I figured I would post.
Getting the moving truck tomorrow and packing. Leaving town Friday morning bright and early. Will be out of the cold snowy place once and for all!! Vegas here I come!! Laughing out loud

Super excited, thanks for asking!

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Oh I see - it's a good memory

Oh I see - it's a good memory match then! Smile

Oooh...only 2 more sleeps for you then. You're entirely welcome Deuce, hope everything goes well. What prompted the move? Not giving up freelancing are you?

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Eh, I'm a southern boy and

Eh, I'm a southern boy and when I moved to the midwest about 9 years ago I knew it wasn't going to be permanent. My wife and I went out to Vegas to visit and enjoyed our time there. We aren't gamblers, so I'm not worried about that. We went to a local casino buffet here a couple months ago and we decided we would move. So, I started saving and here we are!

Give it up? Heck no! That's the reason I love what I do! Don't have to worry about being in any one office, I can do what I do from anywhere!! Of course my local clients are sad to see me leave town, I work pretty closely with them, but they are understanding so that helps!

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WooHoo then - it all sounds

WooHoo then - it all sounds great and working to plan Smile Well done I say and very happy for you. Are you driving down? How long will it take?

I missed Vegas when travelling (years ago now) friends went to Vegas...I went to Santa Fe then we met up in San Francisco. And I've never been sorry, Santa Fe was an assault - of the best kind - on the senses in every way, and I loved the fact that it was a walking town. I was a foot shorter when I left! LOL

As long as you keep in contact with your clients by email they should survive Wink

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Congrats, Deuce.

Congrats, Deuce. Smile

I consider this a Triumph.

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@Smee: Ya, it's a 26 hour

@Smee: Ya, it's a 26 hour drive according to Google Maps, but that doesn't account for gas and pit stops. That and my wife has never been to the petrified forest and painted desert in New Mexico, so we will stop by there and drive around for a bit. And since I am towing my car behind I don't want her to have to worry about driving, so we will probably get a hotel at some point as well. So, two days or so... And all I have to say is that these rental truck companies are making a killing. I might have to change business plans! Wink

@Verschwindende: Thanks!!

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Nah! You don't want to get in

Nah! You don't want to get in to the rental truck business. But it sounds as though it's a loooong trip - but there should be plenty to see and do along the way, so take your time and enjoy it.

Take care and we'll be waiting to hear from you at the other end when things settle down. Happy travelling and safe journey.

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C'mon then...tell us all

C'mon then...tell us all about it. Noticed you couldn't stay away from us even while travelling Wink
How was the trip, got somewhere to live yet?

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Haha, might not be the best

Haha, might not be the best thread for it all, but I did get two hotels during the drive. One of which was a Ramada Inn. If you live in the states and have the opportunity to stay at one of these, avoid it like the plague. Sleep in a gutter, you'll get better service from the homeless guy with pee stains! Stayed at a La Quinta the next night and had an awesome night, minus the parking lot having a huge dip that managed to knock the trailer off the hitch. That required me to stand in the rain and snow, blocking the parking lot with my truck and trailer, while I pulled the car off and rehooked it all up. Wasn't so much fun...

But, we have arrived. Staying with family for the time being, our condo won't be ready until the 12th of next month. Got a really good deal for half price the first two months and no pet fees, deposits, or rent. And since I have two dogs and a cat, this is a huge save in money. The condo is also only about 10-15 minutes from the strip, so it's close enough to go and hang out, but it's far enough way that I don't have to worry about it.

But ya, bored in a hotel room, not much else to do besides read email, RSS feeds, and CSSCreator Smile because I already told clients I was taking that time off, so why spend time making money when I was so busy spending money??!! Puzzled

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It's my thread so we're allowed

It's my thread and I'm sure others are interested too Smile

Ramada Inn - seems nothing has changed since the dasys I travelled for work and used to give the instruction "anywhere but Ramada Inn" LOL.

Bummer about the trailer coming off though. I can imagine that wasn't much fun after a long drive.

Quote:

Got a really good deal for half price the first two months and no pet fees, deposits, or rent. And since I have two dogs and a cat, this is a huge save in money.

The condo deal sounds really good from the little I know of rentals in the US. The dogs and cat came for the drive tooo??? Shock You're a brave man Deuce!

Quote:

I already told clients I was taking that time off, so why spend time making money when I was so busy spending money??!! Puzzled

An admirable attitude I say, enjoy it while you have the chance.

And did you get to visit the Painted Desert 'n stuff? It looks magnificent if this is the one we're talking about.

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I got a chance to spend a few

I got a chance to spend a few hours walking through it on my last drive out. When my moved my folks out here. It was me and a buddy driving the moving truck, so we made really good time driving all day and night, but by the time we hit AZ we were ready to get out and stretch for a while.

When my wife and I drove through, we hit that area just at dusk, so it was a little too late and it snowed the next morning (????In Arizona!!!!) so we weren't able to stop at the Grand Canyon either, unfortunately. But it's only about a 4-5 hour drive, so this summer I am sure we will make time to go back and check it out.

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Snow in Arizona eh? Looks

Snow in Arizona eh? Looks like you're determined to take the weather with you Big smile

Never mind, as you say if the Grand Canyon is a 4-5 hour drive there will be other opportunities no doubt. Pleased it all went reasonably well though and that you get to have a bit of down time as well.

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thanks for your review Deuce,

thanks for your review Deuce, I heard about Ramada Inn. bad service from my friends.

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