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Tyssen
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Labouring the relevance of Doc Type over question asked

meridian wrote:
You have taken this right out of context. It was directed at DC Elliott.

OK, sorry. The way I read it was that it was an open comment to all forum users, rather than a request to one individual to reconsider not posting here. Taken as a comment to anyone, it sounded like you were suggesting people shouldn't post here unless they were true innovators.

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Labouring the relevance of Doc Type over question asked

Now this may will seem as though I am taking you to task and well I may be to a certain extent, but please do not let it in anyway put you off from participating in this forum (not that I think it should for a minute).

Your initial post reads- or can be read - as a criticism of forum members, you state that you have been lurking around then go on to basically let us know that you were instructed to form an opinion on which of us posted valid comments and those that posted for the sake of kudos; this is in itself is understandable but to actually state it on the forum is somewhat odd, even if - and I appreciate the fact that you were offering encouragement to David- it was not intended to come across in that fashion; although you do state that in your opinion there are those that are far more capable of providing quality advice than others, this is really an opinion that would have been better kept to oneself rather than aired.

Hugo.

Your 'Bosses' attitude surprises me, if he doesn't want his time and money wasted then he should employ someone who already has the skillset required otherwise he is investing in someone to learn that craft and he should expect you to need time to find your feet in these matters, it sounds far more like he wants a shortcut to these skills and is hoping that you will just cut & paste others knowledge, hence his concern that you identify the best advice and avoid following what may be suspect; anyhow how are you meant to evaluate what we advise when you have limited skills to understand that advice without checking things out and taking some wrong turns for yourself.

Learning this craft is not going to be achieved by relying on others for the answers to problems you need to do what most of us have done in order to achieve these skills and that is practise , create mock layouts, read endless guides and references such as the W3C, buy and study some decent books. This is how you develope those skills, but no doubt you realise this.

Go back to your boss and explain that we are not a shortcut for him to develope his staff they need and ought to be allowed time to experiment and learn, we are not a one stop shop for easy solutions provided on a plate, this is one of the fundamental mis-conceptions that we have to deal with on this forum, but again I don't necessarily think that's your perception of the forums purpose but it is definitely one of those bugbears we have to deal with.

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Labouring the relevance of Doc Type over question asked

Not all of us work in such a cut-throat world that we can simply buy a new skillset from the available market. In my work as an epidemiologist (not a web designer) in a government department we have to work within the constraints of budgets, negotiated position descriptions and scopes of work. If you have a task involving skills that you don't have within your current employees you generally have to train them or encourage them to train themselves to do it. The better analysts are quite good at this and enjoy the challenge. But just hiring someone - ain't gonna happen.

While I was slightly perplexed at Meridian's boss's position, or perhaps Meridian's impression or articulation of it, I hardly think it deserves a great deal of bandwidth. The most important sentance is perhaps:

Quote:
There seem to be many forum members who have time and expertise to answer the many questions that a search would have answered but few whose words and expertise are strong enough to help move the web forward.
As a rule, this is true - many questions we answer could be handled by a search, but there are often opportunities to make "artful" connections as well as factual connections for the person asking, especially when they are not asking the right question. The instances of truly "moving the web forward" are rare. Alas, Aslet float-clearing techniques and similar innovations are few and far between.

DE

Edited for tipoz

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Labouring the relevance of Doc Type over question asked

I am sincerely sorry for misreading the ethos of this forum and for posting. I can no doubt look forward to receiving my P45 in the morning. Crying

In mitigation I should explain that my and my boss' position is not as stated by Hugo. We are both retired from many years with a major UK corporation where we managed or produced intranets for all the divisions. He is now running a small business management consultancy and wants to offer his clients the option of a full web service. I want to become involved in the web service side. I have the hardware and network skills required and could have contributed to server-side problems. My skills in CSS are limited. Neither my boss or I have any intention of leaching from others as we have been leached from in the past and well know what that is like.

I have spent the last two years privately studying CSS from books and learned websites. In my own time I have produced what seems like hundreds of examples. My boss has consulted a third party who is a contributor to several forums. He assessed the sample sites and pages and his opinion was that I have learnt the theory now I should seek out what people say about CSS in practice.

That was when everything went pear shaped, I visited and read this forum and I became very confused. I suppose it is down to language skills/understanding, poor attention to detail, verbosity. Initially I thought Tyssen was telling me to butt out. But that seemed out of character because I have read many of his posts. I paid more attention to what he had said and then noticed the query mark at the end of the sentence.

But discretion being the better part of valour, I think the time has come for me to butt out. My first post was well meant but not taken that way. I really am sorry for disturbing the equilibrium and wish everyone all the luck in the world in your endeavours. Smile

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Labouring the relevance of Doc Type over question asked

One of the symptoms of my growing frustration here before I left was my tendency to take umbrage at others oft well-meaning posts, either through failure to carefully read or fully understand what the poster was trying to say. I think I am possibly detecting similar tell-tale signs of the epidermo-attenuosum forumalis condition in others here.

DE

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Labouring the relevance of Doc Type over question asked

Laughing out loud Cheers for that David.

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Labouring the relevance of Doc Type over question asked

hey - who are you calling thin-skinned, DCE? Shock
Well me for one.

I bristled at Meridian's first post, but then thought - hang on, who uses the phrase "read people"? That ain't no script-kiddie.

At first I thought Tyssen was suggesting he (Meridian) butt out, but that was not at all like Tyssen. I re-read his post and picked up the question mark that I, originally, read as an exclamation mark (need another eye-check) Cool .

So, I said, "bide your time girl - there's more to this than meets the eye". I *think* I was right. Maybe Meridian could have expressed himself more fully at the start. Then again maybe he was conscious of err... avoiding the excessive verbosity which we see from time to time. Who knows? We may never understand now - bit of a bummer really and, potentially, a loss to the forum in my view. Crying

Oops - completely at odds to Hugo's interpretation - must be my turn to beat a hasty retreat. and never darken these hallowed portals again Tongue

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Labouring the relevance of Doc Type over question asked

Meridian I did understand your well intentioned remarks and indeed did I think, make mention of that, however there were points in your original post that perhaps could have been better expressed or maybe not expressed at all. I have not taken umbrage towards your remarks at all, but I did read them fairly carefully and did understand what you were trying to say. I was attempting to point out that words can often be mis-interpreted or can be read between the lines.

It is possible that my remarks about your 'boss' were somewhat harsh but in response to what I considered slightly unfair treatment of your efforts to understand something and were meant as a defence of you rather than attack. I most certainly didn't wish to imply that I thought your 'boss' was 'Leaching' although I can see that my comments could be perceived that way.

At the outset I did say that none of my remarks should put you off participating in the forum and they shouldn't, most certainly not because of anything I may have said.

Hugo.

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Labouring the relevance of Doc Type over question asked

No Lorraine probably my turn :roll: I'm sure I'm in one of those mis-interpreting phases.

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Labouring the relevance of Doc Type over question asked

meridian wrote:
Initially I thought Tyssen was telling me to butt out.

Oh no, this has turned into a comedy of errors. Sad I wasn't telling you to butt out (and hope you do continue to post on the forum by all means) - I thought you were telling people like me to butt out.

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Labouring the relevance of Doc Type over question asked

See, here we go again, quoting out of context:

meridian actually wrote:
Initially I thought Tyssen was telling me to butt out. But that seemed out of character because I have read many of his posts. I paid more attention to what he had said and then noticed the query mark at the end of the sentence.

Lorraine actually wrote:
At first I thought Tyssen was suggesting he (Meridian) butt out, but that was not at all like Tyssen. I re-read his post and picked up the question mark that I, originally, read as an exclamation mark (need another eye-check) Cool

Keep up old chap, lest the comedy turns into a tragedy Wink

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a polite newbie wanting to help/learn

At the risk of throwing my pebble into the swamp and getting covered in crap – are you not being just a little bit cliquey? Two pages of posts, remarks across the scale from intelligent to thick via sarcastic and rude and why? Coz in may 2005 DCElloit aswed the question "do we answer the question asked or do we fight the good fight ?" And the short answer is surely do both as best we can, allowing for human nature – no? Did you really need 2 pages of posts, two and a half years and a series of insults worthy of the playground at primary school to answer the question or is the real purpose of this thread to let off steam amongst yourselves, before going back to helping stupid, rude newbies who abuse your time, knowledge and patience. If so then as a newbie myself I'm sorry to but in where I'm not welcome, coz reading all of this I feel like I'm butting in where I'm not qualified to be. However I would just like to say that not all of us are rude many say thank you, and we often need several hours of deep thought before we have the slightest idea what the answer you have given us actualy means; maybe if every one kisses and makes up and vows to do their best in the future to make the forum as accessible as possible to the greatest number of reasonable people that's all we need to say!

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meeee wrote:maybe if every

meeee wrote:
maybe if every one kisses and makes up and vows to do their best in the future to make the forum as accessible as possible to the greatest number of reasonable people that's all we need to say!

All that was needed to be said was said before you dragged this thread back up again. Why post in this thread telling people to kiss and make up unless you're genuinely trying to stir trouble?

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I wonder why you would drag

I wonder why you would drag up a two year old thread. To answer some of your questions, explicit and otherwise:

Cliquish? I'd say so. The preponderance of posters to that thread had read literally thousands of each other's posts. Like anyone else, we feel more at ease and are more likely to vent—especially about "the other guys"—with those we feel we know. That doesn't mean the newbies are excluded, it just means there are not the shared experiences.

David's comments are the same as are brought up many times. You won't see all of them because many are behind closed doors. The issues he brought to the table are important and get discussed among the moderators fairly regularly. We all have the tendency to get tunnel vision, as we run into the same questions and responses again and again.

Many of the harangues about validation and DTDs are unhelpful to some degree, but others aren't. The thing is, the forum rules clearly state we expect valid markup and a DTD that will trigger standards mode rendering. If a poster is upset about an "unhelpful" answer, maybe he should step back and re-assess his assumptions. I agree that it could be better sometimes to also include an answer to the issue. The trouble is, forums that allow breaches of etiquette or protocol tend to die. To call someone out for failure to follow the rules, immediately and publicly, is the proven method of ensuring a vibrant and healthy community. Those with clue, learn and become valuable members; those without, leave and cause no loss.

Was it worth sixty plus posts? Probably not. It is a subject that is frustrating, and it is probably a Good Thing® for everyone to get their say.

The disparaging remarks were aimed not at newbies per se, but at anyone who refuses to show they have a modicum of clue. Now David, judging from his day job and his posts here, is a more empathetic person than the usual web geek. We geeks tend to be a little less tactful. We don't even think of the remarks as insults, but rather as an opportunity for the gormless to buy some clue cheaply.

If you've felt rejected or abused for some comment you've made, get over it. Step back and re-assess. I recall some post where you suggested some solution counter to the ethos of the forum, adding there was no reason to be pig-headed in following the standards, rules, semantic naming or something to that effect. Do expect a beat-down. I discussed the benefits of protocols/rules above. As to standards, it is extremely rare that css methods are not best practice. I began coding web pages back before the turn of the century (sounds like a long time, eh? Smile), and made the switch from tables to css for layout in '03. I'm pretty damned good with css, and I can tell you there is no way I would go back for any reason. That's not pig-headed, that's sound pragmatism.

cheers,

gary

UI design should be egoless; if you succumb to the temptation to show off, you’re probably doing it wrong. (from ESR)

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Hm Just to round this off

Hm Just to round this off despite Gary having eloquently answered the poster I'll just add - slightly less eloquently - that we (the regular posters) have every damned right to these posts, cliquish, yes Gary explained why but it's a very poor choice of expression and one that is mildly insulting.
Tell me something why did you 'but' in and why are you not welcome? what is the problem here?

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I've got no problem just comments

1 - if you don't want new people to pick up the thread take it off, don't make it a sticky; the rules of the site state read the stickies before posting, I did from beginning to end I then added my comments for your information, if your no longer interested in new members adding their point of view close the thread
2--my signature means pig headed following of the rules coz they are the rules is stupid; rules should be followed because they are good practice, that is the point, if the rules are not good practice then change them so they are, don't just say do this coz it's the rules
3--I don't feel rejected or abused, I'm old enough and ugly enough(see my photo) to defend my point, I'm no Nellie, I'm just trying to get a flavor for the forum to which i thought I might make contributions
4-- what do you want on this site diverse opinion and debate or political correctness? you say I have posted a solution which is counter to the ethos of this forum, presumably you are mean my post where I point out that I followed the logic of another new member, and where I expressly stated that it was only logical for small simple sites - we are not all grand web designers working on huge projects, some of us are just trying to improve our own personal knowledge for our own personal use on our own small insignificant stupidly simple sites. Are we or are we not welcome to contribute on the same level as a moderator/guru or must we know our place?
5-- I want to do css and markup properly coz it's my choice, coz I understand it's best practice - not coz i'ts the rules stupid!

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Point taken about the thread

Point taken about the thread being a sticky, so I'm unstickyfying!

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