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I am not sure I have the latest version of IE7 installed (and don't want to upgrade right now - long story..) I can't seem to succeed with an alternative IE7 stylesheet, so I am resorting to a hack.

I am interested to know if this comes out right for you?

http://tanreisoftware.com/blog/ie7.html

The top two lines should be green in IE7

I thought there were no easy hacks in IE7, but if this works, then the hack is very simple.
Like this: @media {.left-title { padding-bottom:8pt;}} targets IE7 only.

My question is, does it target the latest official release of IE7 ?

//edit: link made clickable gary/kk5st/mod

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Yes it does.

Yes it does.

IE7 is 10 years behind the standards or wrong.
But it works in IE!
IE is a cancer on the web -- Paul Thurott

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I like your auto signature!

I like your auto signature! tihi!

Good to hear that it works.

I don't know why people would want to use these really complicated 2-5 line hacks to talk to IE7 specifically. This hack is much simpler.

(Apparently it also targets a browser called iCab, however I haven't even heard of that browser, and if it's even got a measurable market share it must be less than 0.2%.

Maybe I'll put up a conditional box to apologize to ICab users.

"Don't blame me, blame IE" )

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johanna0507

johanna0507 wrote:
(Apparently it also targets a browser called iCab, however I haven't even heard of that browser, and if it's even got a measurable market share it must be less than 0.2%.

http://www.icab.de/

Smile

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Do be careful about veering

Do be careful about veering off on that path to hacks , what do you need a hack for? by and large you need far fewer specific IE rules where IE7 is concerned and where you do it is probably better to get in the habit of using CC for IE. Hacks are a bad thing, often used in place of knowledge of what is really happening or required.

I think that an empty media rule is actually an invalid/illegal statement; remember that with hacks the absolute requirement if they have to be used is that they MUST be validating.

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Hi Hugo! I would have

Hi Hugo!
I would have preferred to use a conditional statement, like "if IE 7"..
However I can't get it to work with my Wordpress blog.
I followed all the instructions, still most of the corrections were not picked up.

It's something to do with the fact that php and multiple php files are used to construct the html pages, it seems. I am sure it IS possible to get it working, but I took it as far as I could with no success.

The amount of time I have spent on this project is bordering on silly and I really want to finish it now. If not for IE/Microsoft I think it would have taken me 1/3 of the time I spent so far. It makes me furious to think about it.

I posted a post in Wordpress to ask for help to get it working, but nobody seems to know, so I basically cut my losses and moved on to hacks...

Jo

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Fair enough you must do what

Fair enough you must do what you think best to get things completed, within reason.

It would be helpful perhaps to know what precisely you are having a problem with that requires a specific filtered rule for IE7; generally most things can be coped with and often when not it's due to a filtered rule for IE6 that IE7 needs as well.

Not sure why you had problems with CC for WP I would have thought that you could just include a hard coded CC in header.php - not perhaps the most elegant solution but it should work - It may help to se the syntax you used for the CC and perhaps the rules within to try and spot if there were any problems.

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Hugo wrote:Not sure why you

Hugo wrote:
Not sure why you had problems with CC for WP I would have thought that you could just include a hard coded CC in header.php - not perhaps the most elegant solution but it should work

Yeah, I can't think why it wouldn't. I use different IE CCs on my site which runs Wordpress.

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Hugo, Tyssen, Thank you

Hugo, Tyssen,
Thank you both; Well I did exactly what you mentioned with the IE7 stylesheet, but I found that only SOME changes were picked up. Changes to sidebars for example, were not.

Also, I found I had to call the stylesheet from various other php pages in my WP theme that are part of the site. If I didn't, the corresponding part of the website did not implement the changes. I still couldn't get all the changes recognized.

I asked for help explaining what was happening in WP, but nobody could help, so I decided to cut my losses and use a dirty hack instead. I guess it's become second nature to cry wolf with IE, but maybe this time IE is innocent and I am the guilty party!

Lately I have become worried that my CSS is too bloated and that this could be explaining funny behaviour.

(Performance-wise I can't see a big impact and I haven't started optimizing yet. But obviously the less complex and bloated the CSS, the easier to troubleshoot and manipulate.)

Regards
JO

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Perhaps there is a small

Perhaps there is a small amount of bloat to the stylesheet but I would not be too concerned with that at this stage, CMS styles by their nature of generated content and the often endless different content that may be displayed are probably the hardest to style and it's very easy for stylesheets to start to become rather overpowering and confusing; it's one scenario where I perhaps would advocate splitting styles up into layout styles, typographic/colors styles etc. and calling them using @import rules just so that one isn't always having to wade through a heap of unnecessary properties, but this can bring it's own problems and does have to be carefully done.

Your styles don't look too bad, but what worries me is the amount of IE star selector filters and also your use of PT for sizing as this is considered a print size and not really to be used in screen rendition.

I am still confused as to why you are having problems with the CC called from header.php, but notice that you have a number of CC calls appearing throughout the html body where they shouldn't be, so you appear to be placing CC styles in incorrect include files?.

I also notice that there are quite a few badly nested elements causing markup errors which you must really attend to as priority as leaving them can cause the application of style properties to be perhaps coloured by other errors leading to corecting problems from the wrong perspective.

Problem with all this is that any more detailed help with a CMS really requires digging into all the various include files to see what's happening and how things are structured.

Hugo.

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Thanks for the feedback

Thanks for the feedback Hugo! I really appreciate it!
Gosh I wonder if you viewed some old cached version of my files?
Most of the things you mention sound like things I already fixed!

I DID call that IE7 stylesheet from all over the place after I realised that calling it from the head section wasn't enough. (Strange, isn't it?).
However I thought I'd deleted all that! I'll check again just to make sure, but I could have sworn I got rid of all instances.

I did run the HTML through W3s validator and got rid of all errors, however I have made some changes since, so maybe something broke since.

Yesterday I validated the CSS on W3 and fixed all the problems.
(The hacks for IE 6, 7 and Opera don't validate though, so I commented all that out and run the 'real' CSS through W3 until it validated ok apart from one call to a htc file. )

It's work in progress at the moment and I am super keen to finish before New Years!

I think I DID chose the WRONG unit for length and now I am not sure what to do about it.
Going through the whole file and translating to px will take forever!

I must have got this wrong, because when I did the initial resarch I got the impression that pt was a universal size, the same on all monitors etc. That it actually corresponds to a measurement, say 0.2mm for example. It seemed that best practice meant using em which seemed a bit wobbly to me, since em isn't a measurement in its own right, but depends on the font size.

But it seems that Opera for one simply uses another size for pt. All the height values were wrong in Opera. I wouldn't know if that happens with pixels on Opera, or not.

The design I choose is probably too ambitious and elaborate for a first time project. A straightforward 2 col layout with nothing fancy would have been a better way to learn.
Instead I unknowingly tried to build a castle when I should have done a shed!

(I wanted to exactly replicate the way that an old piece of writing paper looks, laying on a wooden tray which rests on a linen tablecloth! )

A friend of mine had been raving about CSS and I thought it'd be a piece of cake! How clueless I was!

My next project will be something that lets me use proper syntax, best practice etc right from the start!

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Er, cached copy? I am often

Er, cached copy? I am often guilty of forgetting about caching, I'm referencing the link you placed in your other topic about 'Numb Links' (almost wrote something else then!)
http://www.vikingprincess.net/?p=21

Perhaps I'm looking at entirely the wrong thing? but I have forced refreshed the page.

Problem with monitors, resolutions, font-sizes, et al is that there is no such thing as a standardized one size fits all solution, the best one can do is size in relative units (and that includes PX as contrary to popular belief they are actually classed as a relative unit, a pixel is not a pixel it's what the monitor decides it will render as a pixel and that can and will vary) I don't think one can say that any measurement is a universal size, The classic description of a PT is that 72pt equals one inch in height but that was always a reference one used when thinking in printing terms working with DTP/graphics.

Referencing the link above it strikes me that you also have not set a uniform body font-size which is a pretty much accepted convention and helps to attempt to get browsers starting off from the same size and thereafter sizing text or widths, margins etc. using percentage or em calculated measurements.

I suspect that setting a body font size will help Opera to conform.

I hate to say it but you may have to go through and set font-sizes in ems or percents

For a first project I think that you have probably done rather well, but yes it was/is ambitious.

It's a common misconception that CSS is a piece of cake, nothing that offers that degree of fine control over one aspect of something can ever be that simple and unless understood well allows for a high degree of confusion and conflict to reign.

Bear in mind that with WP you can associate another stylesheet with a theme, so the best plan of attack may be to get this one finished to your basic satisfaction and then rather than to try and start changing it start afresh using the main theme files; copy the main layout elements of the styles to one stylesheet and maybe split up the aspects such as background calls , typography, colors, to another and import it into the main sheet. Essentially working on this new set of styles without pressure so to speak that you have to get finished.

Hugo.

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Quote:I must have got this

Quote:
I must have got this wrong, because when I did the initial resarch I got the impression that pt was a universal size, the same on all monitors etc. That it actually corresponds to a measurement, say 0.2mm for example. It seemed that best practice meant using em which seemed a bit wobbly to me, since em isn't a measurement in its own right, but depends on the font size.

Fonts are something over which designers often would like to have complete control, but the fact is that you don't, can't, and never will. Take a look at the Web Matters site, and especially this page.

My current practice is to accept the user's own choice of font faces and sizes and design my sites to they scale to their choice. Either they have a preferred font and font size or the default font and size of their browsers doesn't bother them enough to prompt them to learn to change it. Either way I please them, or at least don't offend them too badly. I do suggest a sans-serif font on body text and serif fonts for headers, but that's usually as far as I go.

I specify any different font-sizes in percentages and try not to go any smaller than 80%.

This may be because I have fairly crappy vision and need a good large font size, especially on newer high-res screens.

Anyway I think the practices recommended at Web Matters have much to recommend them.

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You might consider that

You might consider that even though it's in a conditional comment, a link may only be in the head section, and not in the body. See line 228

cheers,

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Ed Seedhouse wrote:Take a

Ed Seedhouse wrote:
Take a look at the Web Matters site, and especially this page.

I don't know I agree with his points on not using Verdana or any font-family specification at all.

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Tyssen wrote:Ed Seedhouse

Tyssen wrote:
Ed Seedhouse wrote:
Take a look at the Web Matters site, and especially this page.

I don't know I agree with his points on not using Verdana or any font-family specification at all.

I think it merits consideration, anyway. I am certainly not citing him as the ultimate authority and there's always room for disagreement, or should be.

I do rather like Georgia as a serif font for headings, so I tend to specify that and "serif" for headings and just "sans-serif" for body text.

The essential point is that, when push comes to shove we don't get to dicate this - anyone with "Greasemonkey" can change it all around anyway. So if we can't ultimately have any real control we need to adapt to the user's preferences.

Locally I use Bitstream Vera Sans for my sans-serif default font. I think there are good arguments against verdana because it really is quite different from other sans-serif fonts in general, but I don't think it's really a hugely important point.

The main thing is that if we make a design that relies solely on one font face and one font size we are asking for trouble.

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Hugo wrote:...the best one

Hugo wrote:
...the best one can do is size in relative units (and that includes PX as contrary to popular belief they are actually classed as a relative unit, a pixel is not a pixel it's what the monitor decides it will render as a pixel and that can and will vary)...

Whilst screen displays can be re-sized/re-scaled by the user causing one specified 'pixel' to be made up from, for example, four actual pixels (because changing the resolution of your display does not change its physical construction), I would say that specifying font sizes in pixels is the most effective way to ensure that your page layout stays true to your intended design when viewed without font scaling alterations. Unless, that is, you are not using pixel units to specify the rest of your layout. In other words, although pixels are a relative unit, they are exactly (pixel-pefect) relative to the rest of your design if you also use pixels for your other page elements.

The big drawback with using pixels as a specification for font sizes though, is that IE's font scaling tool does not change font sizes specified in pixels. This is one of the few things that IE does correctly in my opinion, as when I specify pixels, I want a definite font size, not a relative one, but don't take that comment at face value as I am as much of an accessibility evangelist as the next moderator on this forum.

So, if you specify your font sizes in pixels (as I do), then you also need to offer the user a clear and effective means of scaling the text up or down in size according to their preference. The beauty of handling this in the source code is that you can also ensure that the layout scales up or down to suit, so that your layout does not break with large text e.g. long-worded navigation text in a narrow menu block. One can also then rig the headlines to scale at different rates to one's body text (avoiding disproportionally large titles), but all of that is another story and not for the inexperienced coder. It's just the path I chose to take some years ago, and I'm still happy that I did the right thing as it suits my 'pixel-perfect' mentality and traditional-designer background.

In short, I agree with all the advice above as point sizes are the worst thing to use on a website (print styling excepted), but just wanted to point out that specifying pixels can be a good thing if you go about it in the right - albeit complicated - way (IMHO) Smile

PS: I am ill and have a spongy brain so I hope I have made some sense above!

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It made sense Roy, trouble

It made sense Roy, trouble is this is one of those subjects that is in fact far more complicated (to a degree) than many realise and requires a firm understanding of monitor resolutions/metrics, DPI, CSS px VS. screen px.

It seems another reason why really web design must pay attention and observe carefully the areas where it does not have final say on things. font sizing, font faces, monitor display settings these are all things that are not and should not be under our control, all we do is allow for the scalability and flexibility of design, but this is an area not mentioned enough nor are there any really good guides on the subject, although I did find a fairly interesting blog on the subject of DPI/resolution and CSS pixels which I'll try and find for anyone interested.

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Ed Seedhouse wrote:My

Ed Seedhouse wrote:
My current practice is to accept the user's own choice of font faces and sizes and design my sites to they scale to their choice. Either they have a preferred font and font size or the default font and size of their browsers doesn't bother them enough to prompt them to learn to change it.

I'd hazard a guess that somewhere in the high ninety percents of users do not alter the font settings of their browsers/OS. If these people aren't your audience, then fair enough. If they are, you have to specify a reasonable font face and font size.

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Chris..S wrote:Ed Seedhouse

Chris..S wrote:
Ed Seedhouse wrote:
My current practice is to accept the user's own choice of font faces and sizes and design my sites to they scale to their choice. Either they have a preferred font and font size or the default font and size of their browsers doesn't bother them enough to prompt them to learn to change it.

I'd hazard a guess that somewhere in the high ninety percents of users do not alter the font settings of their browsers/OS. If these people aren't your audience, then fair enough. If they are, you have to specify a reasonable font face and font size.

Um, I thought I covered that - see the last part of my quote. If people don't feel any need to change the default font of their browsers I don't feel any need to override their decision to stick with it. If they hate their default font face and size enough they'll figure out how to change it. If they don't I assume they will be reasonably happy with a page presented using that font.

Well OK, that's not quite true, because I will give them a font family of sans-serif for body text and I even go so far as to give them Georgia for their headings. I suppose to be really consistent I should let them read my body text in serif fonts if they really want to. However useability studies seem to favour sans-serif fonts for the lousy resolution of computer monitors so I go that far, and I also generally expand the line-height because some studies appear to show that it tends to improve readibility.

So I am not entirely consistent but I think I have found a reasonable compromise.

I might change my mind tomorrow if I come across evidence that shows otherwise.

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I take it you're not a

I take it you're not a designer by trade then Ed Wink

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roytheboy wrote:I take it

roytheboy wrote:
I take it you're not a designer by trade then Ed Wink

Actually I still make a fair part of my living creating web pages, but I suppose I don't live up to whatever you mean by "designer".

Maybe you could give actual reasons for your opinions instead of what looks at first blush to be a mere put-down? I have given my reasons above, and I'm perfectly prepared to be pursuaded otherwise by better reasons.

Although this is getting off topic and I suppose if it's going to be an extended discussion we should start a new thread.

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Ed Seedhouse wrote:roytheboy

Ed Seedhouse wrote:
roytheboy wrote:
I take it you're not a designer by trade then Ed Wink

Actually I still make a fair part of my living creating web pages, but I suppose I don't live up to whatever you mean by "designer".
What I took from his statement was that designers are usually mad control freaks about font faces and such. Don't take it as an insult...unless I'm wrong. Smile

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Triumph wrote: What I took

Triumph wrote:
What I took from his statement was that designers are usually mad control freaks about font faces and such. Don't take it as an insult...unless I'm wrong. Smile

Hmm, I suppose you could see it that way. Darn you Triumph, ruining a perfectly good snit.

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Triumph wrote:What I took

Triumph wrote:
What I took from his statement was that designers are usually mad control freaks about font faces and such. Don't take it as an insult...unless I'm wrong. Smile

Correct Triumph (thanks). Traditional old-school graphic designers such as myself typically spent as many years learning about typography as a modern coder might spend learning a new language - if not more! To an old-school designer, every pixel of type or colour or blank space is critical to the balance of the layout and perfection is always the ultimate goal ...or is that just me?

This is why so many traditionaly-trained designers that attempt CSSP website design turn to absolute positioning and pixel-specified fonts, because they can't stand the idea that their lovingly crafted layout might break if someone looks at it with a different sized window to theirs, or that their carefully colour-balanced pictures might seem dark under the gamma setting of a PC monitor. I know these things because I am just such a person: a pixel-perfect perfectionist who can tell you when an element is even one pixel out of optimum aesthetic balance.

This is why I go to such great lengths to be able to control my layouts whilst still offering a range of accessibility features, semantic mark-up, and only two absolutely positioned elements used in the last five years. Ever so slowly over the last ten years, I have come to accept that my work might just have a extra few pixels of space in this browser or that, or that the pictures might look cr@p on an older monitor kept by a window, or that the fonts might break the layout if the user overrides my scaling tools with their own. But it still hurts!

So yes; when you show no care for how people see your text, I can tell in an instant that you are not a designer. It was not an insult - just an observation that other traditionaly-trained designers will be able to relate to.

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roytheboy wrote:Triumph

roytheboy wrote:
Triumph wrote:
and only two absolutely positioned elements used in the last five years.

Just out of interest, what were they?

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Tyssen wrote:Just out of

Tyssen wrote:
Just out of interest, what were they?

I have developed my own CMS products, which I brand for my clients prior to them populating a site with content. I have included a few wrapper divs at various parts of the 'master page' template/structure in order to be able to add branding elements as the need arises from site to site, but sometimes I have to be ultra-creative with CSSP if I want each site to look unique. On two occasions, I could not accurately position logo graphics within the header element without resorting to absolute positioning (relative to the header element). Absolute positioning does have its uses, but rightly or wrongly I only use it as a last resort.

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Ed Seedhouse wrote:Chris..S

Ed Seedhouse wrote:
Chris..S wrote:
Ed Seedhouse wrote:
My current practice is to accept the user's own choice of font faces and sizes and design my sites to they scale to their choice. Either they have a preferred font and font size or the default font and size of their browsers doesn't bother them enough to prompt them to learn to change it.

I'd hazard a guess that somewhere in the high ninety percents of users do not alter the font settings of their browsers/OS. If these people aren't your audience, then fair enough. If they are, you have to specify a reasonable font face and font size.

Um, I thought I covered that - see the last part of my quote. If people don't feel any need to change the default font of their browsers ...

I don't think its need. It could be called ignorance or laziness. In my experience, most users take what the defaults are and have no idea (or interest) in how to change them.

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Pixel Perfect DesignerboyRoy

Pixel Perfect DesignerboyRoy wrote:
I could not accurately position logo graphics within the header element without resorting to absolute positioning (relative to the header element). Absolute positioning does have its uses, but rightly or wrongly I only use it as a last resort.

Shouldn't be a last resort or thought of as bad to use position absolute. It has it's very definite and useful place in the grand scheme of things, the problem just arises when people attempt to use it without understanding that grand scheme.

I have often used absolute to construct various aspects of things like headers where it's within a strict context.

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Hugo wrote:Shouldn't be a

Hugo wrote:
Shouldn't be a last resort or thought of as bad to use position absolute. It has it's very definite and useful place in the grand scheme of things, the problem just arises when people attempt to use it without understanding that grand scheme.

I agree with that, and I will go further and say that I wish fixed positioning was better supported (or in other words that I.E. 6 and below will die quickly) because it allows us to do in a better way the one thing frames are actually useful for, namely allowing navigation to remain in the same place on the screen as we scroll down though the content.

Alas, it is not yet so, I'm afraid.

Ed Seedhouse

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