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thepineapplehead
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Quote:
Developing a website without validating is like running around with a blindfold on. As soon as you ask for directions, don’t be surprised if the only answer you’ll get is “take your blindfold off".

from the fantastic Why We Won't Help You,

http://diveintomark.org/archives/2003/05/05/why_we_wont_help_you

Verschwindende wrote:
  • CSS doesn't make pies

Anonymous
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Re: What to tell people with invalid HTML:

thepineapplehead wrote:
Quote:
Developing a website without validating is like running around with a blindfold on. As soon as you ask for directions, don’t be surprised if the only answer you’ll get is “take your blindfold off".
Yes, I've quoted it on my website and attributed it to "some guy named Jim". Laughing out loud

Hugo
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What to tell people with invalid HTML:

Problem here being that this line:
"There is no further discussion; no further replies are posted; no one else is willing to help."
Seldom happens as it usually takes five people to chip in with the same comment and then someone to step in with the whole thing re-written and handed on a plate.

Before you make your first post it is vital that you READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES!
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Please post ALL your code - both CSS & HTML - in [code] tags
Please validate and ensure you have included a full Doctype before posting.
Why validate? Read Me

Anonymous
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What to tell people with invalid HTML:

Hugo wrote:
Problem here being that this line:
"There is no further discussion; no further replies are posted; no one else is willing to help."
Seldom happens as it usually takes five people to chip in with the same comment and then someone to step in with the whole thing re-written and handed on a plate.
Yes, very true.

gary.turner
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What to tell people with invalid HTML:

I haven't done that in ages. So there! Shock Tongue

cheers,

gary

UI design should be egoless; if you succumb to the temptation to show off, you’re probably doing it wrong. (from ESR)

There are enough html & css demos and tutorials to be interesting. Please visit.

n8gz4ez
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What to tell people with invalid HTML:

So is it better to hold out on a solution if someone does not show any effort to fix invalid code in context of this forum?

This is my big chance . . . yep, I blew it . . .

Anonymous
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What to tell people with invalid HTML:

n8gz4ez wrote:
So is it better to hold out on a solution if someone does not show any effort to fix invalid code in context of this forum?
A quote from "dive into mark":
Quote:
Why does this happen? Why won’t we help you?

The short, smart-alec, Zen-like answer is that we are helping you, you just don’t realize it yet. Laughing out loud

Hugo
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What to tell people with invalid HTML:

Nate wrote:
So is it better to hold out on a solution if someone does not show any effort to fix invalid code in context of this forum?


No, not necessarily it is perfectly possible to both explain that someone should have or needs to do something whilst providing help on a particular point, each situation needs to be assessed individually.

What ought not to happen but is a frequent occurence on this forum is that too many people feel the need to re-iterate the same advice which is both unnecessary and can come across as reflecting on the forum as being rather heavy handed and overzealous in it's enthusiasm.

What needs to happen is that if it has been felt that it's necessary to request that a poster corrects errors validates, fixes DocType that the thread is left at that point of reply until such time as the OP has had time to reflect and respond to that request, we should make it plain in that original reply that we are not withdrawing our intention to help but that for help to be offered it is required that certain conditions are met to ensure code is clean and that we will then be able to take things further when the OP re-posts their code if they don't so be it; we know their standpoint then.

It is simply a matter of the regulars understanding when this initial reply has been written that the post is best left until such time as the conditions are met, it demonstrates that we are all working together and upholding some of the basic guidelines required, which are not written for the fun of it, and if we do not pay attention to the principles for correct posting as set out in those minor rules then they are rendered redundant and a waste of time.

As I'm sure were all aware the guidelines are there to help ensure and maintain a level of posting that helps all of us to ask and answer questions to the best degree possible.

Providing answers on a plate is really a question of judgement as to whether, in doing this we are helping someone that genuinely is working with us. It is often by far the best means to demonstrate a solution where attempting to explain it via a written explanation is just too long winded and confusing, and as is often the case when certain members do post up the layout it is for good reason and usually makes for interesting reading as it's often a rather well thought through example to a problem, and I've found many that have made interesting reading and taught me something I may not have thought of.

The danger in just throwing up complete coded layouts is that we send out the wrong message to some people that the forum is somewhere where they may find easy solutions to problems they really have no intention of trying to figure out themselves. We end up just becoming a service for people. This does happen from time to time, but I hasten to add not that often, but it is something we should be aware of before we commit ourselves to this approach.
To allow that attitude to prevail would only have a detrimental effect on the forum as a whole.

Back to the original question though if someone demonstrates a contempt for Standards and of valid code and refuses to believe that they should have to pay regard to these areas, then should we bother to put ourselves out to help them? This forum is geared towards Standards coding; we know that for CSS to function at it's best requires paying attention to Standards and that truthfully invalid markup should just not be tolerated as it does not benefit anything and generally is not difficult to correct and to get in the habit of writing correctly.

As in all things it's a case of making thoughtful judgements as to when to post and whether in posting we bring anything to the discussion and are not just posting to boost our ego level.

These thoughts clearly are my own views on the subject and I do realise that they may come across as seeming like a pompous insensitive ass but hey that's just me I'm afraid Tongue

Hugo.

Before you make your first post it is vital that you READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES!
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Please post ALL your code - both CSS & HTML - in [code] tags
Please validate and ensure you have included a full Doctype before posting.
Why validate? Read Me

drhowarddrfine
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What to tell people with invalid HTML:

I've just not visited a post if the poster just refuses to do fix his code. Sometimes I've said, validate and fix your code, then get back to us but have felt that kind of response was a little rude, though other posters backed me up on it.

On another board, I told some guy to validate/fix and test in FF before IE and he complained that I was just anti-IE and didn't do any of it. I think it is now six weeks later and he still hasn't fixed all his problems and he still posts about it and he still has errors not fixed.

IE7 is 10 years behind the standards or wrong.
But it works in IE!
IE is a cancer on the web -- Paul Thurott

drhowarddrfine
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What to tell people with invalid HTML:

I forgot to say what I originally wanted. I've seen some of the regulars here on other boards and I've noticed they either post less frequently or their answers have become shorter; more terse. Just yesterday I was going to email one and just say, "Are you getting tired of this, too?" It's mainly the little basic things like validation, doctypes, etc. that just get to you after the hundredth one. (And I used to teach electronics for a while.)

IE7 is 10 years behind the standards or wrong.
But it works in IE!
IE is a cancer on the web -- Paul Thurott

n8gz4ez
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What to tell people with invalid HTML:

Hugo wrote:
It is often by far the best means to demonstrate a solution where attempting to explain it via a written explanation is just too long winded and confusing . . .

Laughing out loud This reminds me of studying jazz, someone might ask, "what note are you playing here," then the entire music theory book is throw at you "its the five chord of the phrygian mode but using a tri-tone substitution" . . . asked again, the answer was Bb. Something true that someone once said to me, "music isn't confusing, but musicians almost always are."

Hugo wrote:
The danger in just throwing up complete coded layouts is that we send out the wrong message to some people that the forum is somewhere where they may find easy solutions to problems they really have no intention of trying to figure out themselves. We end up just becoming a service for people.

I think there is a danger in what you are saying, at the same time, an example handed on a sliver platter can really be a great learning device. I remember being hooked me up with tricky layout. I still have it, and I used it and analyzed it for at least two weeks, until I could complete the page on my own. Having a guru layout really taught me more than what I have asked for.

I guess part of the affectiveness of the forum is one problem can be attacked at so many different angles. Laughing out loud

This is my big chance . . . yep, I blew it . . .

Hugo
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What to tell people with invalid HTML:

All true Nate, I like the music analogy having a father who studied and has worked with music composition and theory all his life I have listened to a lot of discussions at that level give me the hardest programming language over music theory any day Smile

I remember the layout you referred to and remember thinking that it went further than the question asked and did indeed run the risk of serving to do the work for you yet you viewed it in the best way as an learning example rather than phew thats one thing I don't have to do, but I think that you have ably demonstrated your willingness and desire to want to grow your knowledge like most of us and in this respect the layout served a beneficial purpose and if memory serves was to the usual high standard that that gentleman turns out Smile and we all benefit and learn from that. This is the paradox of providing layouts, I'm not against it per se, actually not against it at all just that judgement needs to be employed when doing so.

With CSS many problems can be approached from different angles it's one of the things that makes it tricky for people to get comfortable with when there is often no definitive answer.

Hugo.

Before you make your first post it is vital that you READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES!
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Please post ALL your code - both CSS & HTML - in [code] tags
Please validate and ensure you have included a full Doctype before posting.
Why validate? Read Me

HellsBells
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What to tell people with invalid HTML:

Is it me, or are there a lot more rather rude posters around at present (and not just on this board).

My pet theory is that a while back, CSS (particularly positioning) was seen by many designers as something to be tackled at an unspecified future time.

Now it's seen more as a "must have" and all those who put it off are now desperately trying to catch up - and are slightly stressed by the whole situation.

That or they're just rude b******s!

My strategy is so simple an idiot could have devised it!

"Also, your CSS (no offence) makes me want to gouge my eyes out with a rusty spoon" - TPH

gary.turner
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What to tell people with invalid HTML:

H: I'm inclined toward the latter. Smile

cheers,

gary

UI design should be egoless; if you succumb to the temptation to show off, you’re probably doing it wrong. (from ESR)

There are enough html & css demos and tutorials to be interesting. Please visit.

Mike Cherim
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What to tell people with invalid HTML:

I say help them if they want to be helped. In other words you tell someone to validate their mark-up, they ask what's that, you give the short answer, and they go do it and get stuck, asking for help again. That's when I'm inclined to help. But if they act like they don't give a *beep* and are unwilling to care or try, I suddenly find myself with better things to do.